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“Divorcing” Vegas at NAB
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Thanks for jumping in on this Jay, I totally agree the “3D” stuff totally irked me as well. You have an even higher end machine than me, and you are experiencing the same issues.
For everyone else telling me I should stick to different formats…I understand your position, but really think about you are saying. “You shouldn’t use JVC cameras with Firestore’s, you shouldn’t use a Ki Pro, if you want to edit on Vegas” I understand the propriety aspects of codec’s especially with ProRes, but to say that I should have to limit a workflow I am very happy with because my NLE can’t handle it, that is very backwards thinking. Since the NLE is at the end of the production chain, shouldn’t it be able to handle all of the latest file formats especially ones that are from mainstream companies and growing in popularity? Shouldn’t Sony be quicker to release updates to edit these files, or at the very least be honest and give a list of files it can and cannot handle?
If I have a client that specs out a certain workflow for a project…Do I tell them “No I can’t do your project because you want to record on Ki Pros, and I can’t edit that file” I shouldn’t be able to use JVC pro cameras because my NLE doesn’t like the files it generates?
This isn’t just an issue with the HDV files I mentioned in my last post. Last night I was working on SD project, nothing but AVI’s and .WAVs, and I was having the same crashing and strange quirky editing issues I experienced with the HDV project the day before.
Again, many of you are having great success with versions 9 and 10…Many of us aren’t, and Sony doesn’t seem to very forth coming with advice or solutions even though it’s been a while since the 64-bit version 9 came out, and 10 really isn’t a major update, its based on the same architecture.
This isn’t a $50 video game or a $0.99 Iphone app. This is supposed to be a professional editing program, that we all pay several hundred dollars for every time an update comes out, I would really expect better support, and quicker resolutions with bugs than I have seen from Sony over the past couple of years.
Chuck
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[Chuck Pullen] “Thanks for jumping in on this Jay, I totally agree the “3D” stuff totally irked me as well. “
Yeah, there’s a bit of “Microsoft Syndrome” here. For any new release of any well used software, the authors will have a very complete list of the most requested new features, a list of the things they think they need to address (some of which may be stability related, some of which may be hidden architectural changes to remove known limitations, etc). And then there’s the list of “strategic” changes.
Microsoft has had a number of releases (see “Vista”) in which they pretty much ignored the user feedback, and concentrated on the strategic stuff. Vegas 10 has, I think, some good stuff in it.. some of which (like integrated Cineform API support), is still a little half-baked. And then there’s the strategic bit: 3D. Sony sees 3D as the Next Big Thing, and this one’s corporation-wide: TVs, Blu-ray players, camcorders, probably laptops before too long. And there’s some value to them here: being the first major NLE with integrated 3D support, if there’s really a forthcoming 3D craze (I’m waiting for 4K, sorry), could win them some sweet new market share.
Along with this idea, there’s the other problem often displayed in Microsoft products: 1,000 new features, each one only 25-50% functional. This is great for bringing in new customers and old customer upgrades, at least in a world where most people don’t use most of those new features, but figure “maybe some day”. Thing is, in a professional class product, a 50% or even 75% functional new feature is not likely something you can use.
I’ve worked at computer companies (Commodore), dealt with software development from the inside and outside, used wicked expensive CAD tools for electronics development, etc. Back in the Sonic Foundry days, I was absolutely certain that Vegas, Forge, and Acid were the most rock solid tools I had found anywhere in the software world. They shipped good, got better pretty quickly, and even grew new features between revisions. I don’t think Vegas is buggier than other programs in this class, but I also don’t think they’re delivering that previous best-in-industry quality any more. And in other industries, I have used $10,000+ programs (with $2,000+ annual support contracts) that misbehaved more often than Vegas, even today.
With that said, of course we need to demand better. And Sony’s definitely less responsive, in general, than the Sonic Foundry was, in the early days (given that I actually got new features I requested in the very next revision of Acid, that would be hard to top).
But also… proprietary is proprietary. Vegas was the very first NLE to support a wide variety of input formats without conversion. But like any other NLE using Apple’s formats, Vegas is at the mercy of Apple’s Quicktime subsystem as implemented on Windows. Unless there’s some Vegas-specific bug in interfacing to that, you’re not going to find it better with ProRes on any Windows NLE. Apple has kind of a vested interest in delivering the absolute minimal Windows support that doesn’t prevent ProRes from being an acceptable industry standard.
Looking at it from the other direction, if you have any slightly off-norm format in Apple’s Final Cut Pro, you have to convert it to ProRes or something else before editing. Even AVC, except maybe in the very latest version (not sure, I know iMovie does AVC to some extent, my daughter uses it in school).
On a personal level, sorry we didn’t do enough back in the early 90s to keep the Amiga alive, thus letting Apple jump into the video thing before PCs were really ready, and thus creating this situation.
-Dave
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[Chuck Pullen] ” but really think about you are saying. “You shouldn’t use JVC cameras with Firestore’s, you shouldn’t use a Ki Pro, if you want to edit on Vegas” I understand the propriety aspects of codec’s especially with ProRes, but to say that I should have to limit a workflow I am very happy with because my NLE can’t handle it, that is very backwards thinking.”
Not at all. What I was saying is that the NLE that you place at the end if the chain should fit the formats to choose to work with at the beginning of the chain. If you buy hard disc recording unit that captures proprietary Apple ProRes422 format, you should buy an Apple to edit it.
[Chuck Pullen] ” Since the NLE is at the end of the production chain, shouldn’t it be able to handle all of the latest file formats especially ones that are from mainstream companies and growing in popularity?”
No, that’s an impossibility. Camera manufacturers are OUT OF CONTROL! Every month they come up with a new format. No software can nor should support that. Consumer should send a clear message and stop buying these cameras until the manufacturers learn to standardize on their formats. I will not buy a camera that doesn’t shoot HDV, XDCAM, or AVCHD. I voted with my wallet. You should too. If you don’t then don’t be surprised when your “video format of the month” doesn’t work with your NLE.
[Chuck Pullen] “Shouldn’t Sony be quicker to release updates to edit these files, or at the very least be honest and give a list of files it can and cannot handle?”
That would be an extremely long list due to the fact that the video formats are multiplying each month. They do list the formats that they support. These are the formats you should use.
[Chuck Pullen] “If I have a client that specs out a certain workflow for a project…Do I tell them “No I can’t do your project because you want to record on Ki Pros, and I can’t edit that file” I shouldn’t be able to use JVC pro cameras because my NLE doesn’t like the files it generates? “
No, you do what every Apple editor with Final Cut Pro does… you convert all of those formats into an digital intermediary and edit with that.
You see this is the problem that Apple FCP has solved. They dictate that they will not deal with any native formats. Everything gets converted into ProRes422 and that’s what gets edited. It’s rigid and simplistic in it’s approach, but it actually works! Why can’t PC editors understand this?
A great acquisition format is quite often not a great editing format. Acquire anything you want from any camera you want and convert all of the to a digital intermediary (something like CineForm) and all of your editing problems will be gone. Just like FCP does. Expecting any NLE to support anything you care to drop on the timeline is a recipe for disaster. You need to conform your workflow to formats that edit easily. That’s all we’re trying to say.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
Good points Dave, I agree it’s not a simple task to handle every format with the “Wild West” of HD formats as I believe John mentioned previously. But again, they should really draw a line in the sand…if they’re not going to support ProRes, then they should just say so, and I’ll find someone who can support my workflow. They are being intentionally vague about codec support, every update includes “stability updates” but they never really say what they addressed and what they didn’t. I would really appreciate if they would let us know whether or not they addressed a specific problem so I know whether to waste my time or not.
[Dave Haynie] “On a personal level, sorry we didn’t do enough back in the early 90s to keep the Amiga alive, thus letting Apple jump into the video thing before PCs were really ready, and thus creating this situation.”
I wish you would have too Dave, I really miss the original Video Toaster! It’s like your first car/first girlfriend…There will always be a special place in my heart for the Toaster…and Kiki’s legs transitioning across the screen!
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My mistake John was using the example I had in front of me at that moment that was giving me trouble. As I later mentioned the very next day I was working with SD AVI’s and WAV files and I was having the exact same issues as I did with the .M2T and ProRes. I realize I am going to have issues with the HDV files, but how long have we had .AVI’s and .Wavs?
[John Rofrano] “No, that’s an impossibility. Camera manufacturers are OUT OF CONTROL! Every month they come up with a new format. No software can nor should support that. Consumer should send a clear message and stop buying these cameras until the manufacturers learn to standardize on their formats. I will not buy a camera that doesn’t shoot HDV, XDCAM, or AVCHD. I voted with my wallet. You should too. If you don’t then don’t be surprised when your “video format of the month” doesn’t work with your NLE.”
I agree with your logic John, but then at what point do you decide how long to wait or what new products to buy? I go to Vegas next month and say “Wow I love that new camera, or this new recorder will save me a ton of time while shooting an upcoming project”. Oh wait Vegas doesn’t support it, I guess I have to wait for version 11 to come out and see if it supports it. To me this seems to be a chicken/egg conundrum, we are handcuffed from buying a certain new production devices until our NLE supports it. By the time Vegas 11 supports this hardware, then the new version comes out and it does something different.
I have been relegated to taking certain projects to my “Mac guy” to get files converted so I can get them on my PC, then have to convert them again so Vegas can see them. When I am crunched for time, that really eats into my total working time.
At the end of the day John what I am really saying to Sony is this…”Please don’t make me buy a Mac! I love(d) using Vegas and wish it would handle what I throw at it….if it can’t I have to move on” I will take some of the blame with things like the ProRes codec, but when Vegas is crashing while I’m working with some simple .AVI’s, something is really wrong…
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And I should add… much of this is TOTALLY out of the NLE developer’s control. Sony can say they support AVI by hooking Vegas in to using the Direct Show and Video-for-Windows multimedia framework. And the same with Quicktime, supporting the Quicktime framework.
But once done, there’s absolutely no way to control how well those interface works. We’ve already seen, here on the COW/Vegas, people complaining about poor 64-bit performance.. which turns out to be just a crappy 64-bit implementation of some CODEC or another. Neither Sony nor anyone else can be responsible for every possible CODEC plugged into these various frameworks. Same exact issue as Windows vs. device drivers, Firefox vs. browser plug-ins, etc.
Am I happy they support AVI and Quicktime, in addition to those formats Sony actually develops themselves (DV, HDV, AVC). Sure I am… way better than the FCP world John described (Avid and Adobe used to be similarly restrictive.. one reason I went to Vegas. That, and my e-buddy Peter Haller was working for Sonic Foundry). But if I find DNxHD and AVC run just dandy under Quicktime in Vegas 10, and ProRes has issues, I do know it’s not likely something under Sony’s control. I don’t think they recommend ProRes, much less promote it… I searched the site, and found only two mentions of it. One of those was telling you to use industry standard MXF, rather than ProRes or DNxHD. The other mentioned ProRes as a download from Apple, and integrated with Quicktime above a certain revision level.
They allow you to use it, but again, unless there’s a specific bug in Vegas relative to Quicktime support, the problem isn’t Vegas. Freedom has its own price, eh?
-Dave
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[Chuck Pullen] “I go to Vegas next month and say “Wow I love that new camera, or this new recorder will save me a ton of time while shooting an upcoming project”. Oh wait Vegas doesn’t support it, I guess I have to wait for version 11 to come out and see if it supports it. “
Yea, but that’s not a Vegas statement. That a statement with any hardware and software staying in sync. FCP, Avid, Premiere Pro, and Vegas Pro are all at the mercy of camera equipment manufacturers. This is not going to change any time soon…. wait… I take that back… if you buy Sony cameras you will be in sync because the Vegas team has been very diligent about supporting new Sony equipment. 😉
[Chuck Pullen] “I have been relegated to taking certain projects to my “Mac guy” to get files converted so I can get them on my PC, then have to convert them again so Vegas can see them. When I am crunched for time, that really eats into my total working time. “
Have your Mac guy install the free Avid NDxHD codec and you do the same for the PC. This is a format that will transfer easily between Mac and PC and not give gamma issues and edits fine in Vegas Pro. This way you don’t have to convert again for Vegas Pro.
[Chuck Pullen] ” but when Vegas is crashing while I’m working with some simple .AVI’s, something is really wrong…”
I agree with you that SD AVI files and WAV files should work. I’m not sure why you are having problems with those.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
that we all pay several hundred dollars for every time an update comes out
You must have missed the memo. I’ve never paid more than $150 for a Vegas Pro upgrade since Version 3.
Steve Mann
MannMade Digital Video
http://www.mmdv.com -
I’ve been using Vegas since version 4. In fact I first used “Video Explosion” which was really Sonic Foundry’s Video Factory. Anyway, I have loved (still love) Vegas. Every new version was so much greater than the previous, and the stability also improved. I was extremely happy with Pro 8. Pro 8 almost never crashed. When Pro 9 came out, I intentionally skipped it as I didn’t see any benefit over Pro 8.
Then when Pro 10 supported the Canon 5D MOV files, I bought the upgrade immediately, as I no longer wanted intermediate files. For the most part, it works OK with these files. A bit sluggish, but still prever that over intermediate files. However, the stability of Pro 10 is so much worse. It crashes aften with some projects. Oddly enough, some audio-only projects will crash or hang. And these are just .wav or .mp3 files. I’ve also had issues with empty audio tracks when nesting certain projects.
So maybe it’s my machines because of bad driver interactions, or from using old plugins, not sure. It’s just my perception that Vegas Pro isn’t as stable as it used to be. If I didn’t have a 32-bit PC I would now be using Premiere CS5 (which only supports 64-bit).
-Jim.
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Those Sanyo Xacti files drove me up the wall back in Vegas 8 and 9, but since 10 came out it’s handled them with no problem for me. Vegas has had a lot of problems for me over the years, but it’s still my favorite NLE. I view it sort of like that Winston Churchill quote about democracy. “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”
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