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Digibeta to prores?
Once again, because of space and speed, I need to convert 3 hours of uncompressed SD archival footage to prores or similar. The footage was handed to me for editing with newly shot HDV.
So, I’ve been experimenting with Compressor, using it to upres the archival footage to prores at HD size to cut with the HDV.
The final program will be screened in an exhibition from a 1400×1050 projector.
Previously, I’ve trialled projecting an SD version from this projector as well as a version scaled from the native HDV 1440×1080 50i (all PAL here) and rendered out as photo jpeg 75% and the latter is far superior.
Because there’s a lot of edit drafts and to and fro-ing on my MacBook Pro to client, I always edit in offline, then reconform in HDV.
My questions are these:
1. Why are the pro res 1920×1080 files so much bigger at around 2gb per minute than uncompressed (I’m trying to keep the size down because it all has to be archived)?
2. Should I simply convert to pro res SD size then let FCP upscale it? In any case, I like to crop the old 4:3 footage scene by scene.
3. What about apple intermediate?
4. Once the offline edit is approved, could I look to recapture HDV camera footage in a size and codec in line with the output settings?Thanks
Mickey
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17 Replies
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[Mickey Power] “Previously, I’ve trialled projecting an SD version from this projector as well as a version scaled from the native HDV 1440×1080 50i (all PAL here) and rendered out as photo jpeg 75% and the latter is far superior. “
PhotoJPEG 75% is 422. Very good quality.[Mickey Power] “1. Why are the pro res 1920×1080 files so much bigger at around 2gb per minute than uncompressed (I’m trying to keep the size down because it all has to be archived)? “
Are you comparing Unc SD with Proress HD?
Proress makes the files some 4/5 folds smaller than Uncompress.[Mickey Power] “2. Should I simply convert to pro res SD size then let FCP upscale it? In any case, I like to crop the old 4:3 footage scene by scene. “
I think that’s the way.[Mickey Power] “3. What about apple intermediate?
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Forget about.
[Mickey Power] “4. Once the offline edit is approved, could I look to recapture HDV camera footage in a size and codec in line with the output setting.
Yes. If you can recapture your HDV with a video card you will get the best possible transcoding.
rafael(and here some clips for the friends: https://www.vimeo.com/2694745 )
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Thanks Rafael
I thought prores took up less space than uncompressed but I tried exporting out of Compressor and FCP and my already scaled to HD 10sec test clips are 119mb.
But the SD sized prores clips are only 49mb for 10sec. So do you trust FCP to do sufficient high quality scaling? I’ve done this before and not felt entirely satisfied.
Just thinking of a system where all this neatly meets in the middle resolution, avoids double handling (esp sizing of individual 4:3 clips) and allows real time playing. Then I think, the output size is very close to the native HDV …
Mickey
Mickey
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I do downscaling with FC,but for upscaling I would use Compressor with the Frame Control:ON.
rafael(and here some clips for the friends: https://www.vimeo.com/2694745 )
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[Mickey Power] “1. Why are the pro res 1920×1080 files so much bigger at around 2gb per minute than uncompressed (I’m trying to keep the size down because it all has to be archived)? “
ProRes HD is a larger file size than Uncompressed SD. It’s a larger frame, more information. Create an Uncompressed HD file and you’ll see the difference.
[Mickey Power] “2. Should I simply convert to pro res SD size then let FCP upscale it? In any case, I like to crop the old 4:3 footage scene by scene. “
Nope, lousy quality.
[Mickey Power] “3. What about apple intermediate? “
Would never recommend it.
[Mickey Power] “4. Once the offline edit is approved, could I look to recapture HDV camera footage in a size and codec in line with the output settings? “
Not that I know of. You’ll need to scale everything to that frame size. You’ll just need to create a custom sequence setting and then scale everything into that frame size. I’ve never heard of an off frame size like that but anything’s possible these days.
With three hours of archive material your best bet is a hardware converter like an AJA Kona 3. Convert all the DigiBeta in realtime during ingest so you don’t have to fiddle with it later. We just converted 13 hours of BetaSX to 1080i HD in realtime this past week through the Kona 3.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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So I guess uprezzing in Compressor to HDV is a terrible idea? What other HD codecs fit the bill in being easy to work with, smaller rather than larger and suitable for cutting with other footage?
I was looking keenly at the MXO2 ads on this site but that or another hardware purchase for uprezzing is not the short term solution here, not for the bunch I’m producing for anyway.
Thanks
Mickey
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[Mickey Power] “So I guess uprezzing in Compressor to HDV is a terrible idea? What other HD codecs fit the bill in being easy to work with, smaller rather than larger and suitable for cutting with other footage? “
Upconverting ANYTHING to HDV is a terrible idea. 25:1 MPEG-2 Long GOP compression. No thank you.
DVCPro HD is a smaller file size. We work with that format all the time. Using Compressor to convert 3 hours of material is going to take you quite a while. Hope you have plenty of time for rendering.
[Mickey Power] “I was looking keenly at the MXO2 ads on this site but that or another hardware purchase for uprezzing is not the short term solution here, not for the bunch I’m producing for anyway. “
Is it worth the money for this one project to pay for an MXO 2 or Kona 3 so you’ll always have it in the future? That’s how I look at stuff like this. Use this one job to pay for the hardware, I’ll lose some money on this job, but then I have the hardware for all other jobs in the future.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Hey Mickey, Walter,
I completely agree with Walter, if you need a tool for this one job that can help you (granted taking some $$ out of your pocket) you must really think of what investment to make… what is the best tool.. Well I feel like a winner today.
A few weeks ago I got my Matrox MXO2 and I primarily bought it to monitor my projects via HDMI, but today I read a post that really made me feel like it is Christmas morning again!! Looks like the folks at Matrox are giving their customers more features..
Check out this post:
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/132/857435
They are giving me …
1.Up/down and cross conversion on input as well as output.
2.Closed Caption support… apprently it is also preseverd during the editing process.
3. And potentially I now have the ability to capture HD ProRes with my MBP.These guys at Matrox seem to really care about us. Good on them!
An Artist At Heart.
Life is made of moments… -
Honestly, I would love to invest in an MXO2 (can you take uncompressed straight out of an EX1?) but for the moment have to work within certain parameters, namely the uncompressed footage has been delivered to me on hard drive and it’s up to me to do the best with it I can.
I’d like to return to something I raised earlier, the possibility of meeting somewhere in the middle. After the offline edit has been locked off, I’ll set up a new seq in FCP in HDV for the final hi res version but will change the pixel aspect to square. Why? Because the specific size of 1440×1080 is close to the projecting size of 1400×1050. Since subtitles are required, the 16:9 HDV footage is positioned in the top 4/5s (some downscaling here but is inevitable given final output size). This finally is dropped into the output sequence and outputted as photo jpeg 75%. Maybe the render setting of the HDV seq should be prores?
Re the archival footage, I’ve experimented with uprezzing the uncompressed SD footage into photo jpeg and it looks good, plays real time within sequence and file size is good. There is mucho rendering from Compressor but this can be an overnight job.
Grateful for further comments and insight.
Mickey
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[Mickey Power] “(can you take uncompressed straight out of an EX1?”
BEFORE you record the image to a card. Once you’ve recorded it, it’s the same format whether you feed out of HD-SDI or from the card.
But a live shot straight out of the camera is an uncompressed image that could be fed to a VTR or a switcher with pristine quality.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Thanks, Walter
Certainly the uncompressed signal would have to go before being recorded otherwise what’s the point? Interesting if the MXO2 can handle this, given it’s portability. It would hardly be a run and gun affair with a macbook pro and silver box hanging off but for shooting something with good logistical support this could be a step up.
Is the potential in this regard worth getting excited about, ie the gains in colour depth and general picture quality?
No comments on photo jpeg for uprezzing? I’ve used it a lot for programs played off hard drives and downrezzing to mpeg2 for DVDs and it is very clean.
Mickey
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