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difficulties with clients
Hi, I’m a new editor and I own my own little production company. I feel the need to turn to some people in the biz, and thought of you guys cause you’re awesome.
I have some difficult clients right now, and I am really learning a thing or two….let me tell you. First off, I’m doing a 60 second commercial that will air on DirectTV. I am new to the biz, and landed the job because the client wanted it done cheaply, and she certainly got me cheap. It’s shot and edited by me, and it’s way under $1,000. I don’t know what I was thinking, but the contract was signed last fall, and we finally got into shooting in March, and now the edit is almost done. I was hired to do it all, but found out the night before the shoot that a girl 15 years my junior was to come along, one who assists directors in indie shoots (big whoopie). Anyway, long story short, she shows up and takes over, takes over my shots, and then takes my camera. yes, my fault for letting her, but she was bugging me over every shot I was doing, so I figured, go ahead, do it. First mistake. That was not a good day, I felt like I was there just so they could rent my equipment.
Now we’re editing, and she is in the picture again, and she’s trying to run the show, and she has no clue, and I’ll admit, I’m being difficult to work with. I truly dislike that she’s telling me what to do, because she’s clueless. Her shots sucked, and her concept of editing, and everything that is involved is way off track. I’m being difficult because I resent her being there, and I run my own production gig, and it was my job. Anyway, I think I’m being unprofessional, because I’m complaining about the situation to them. When the client will say yes to a certain cut, do it this way, and this younger girl will be like, oh no, it should go like this….well, it’s just not a good situation.
I’m just losing my mind. I guess I need to be told, Hey Lisa, this is the business, suck it up or ship out. Or, maybe I’m actually right in being pissy.
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32 Replies
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Read Ron’s article “Clients or Grinders” here on the cow. In my experience the less you get paid the more crap you have to deal with. Do your job, get it done. Learn from it and dont undersell yourself anymore.
Scott Davis
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Well, you could ignore her and proceed with your work. If she buts in, politely ask her to leave and explain to the client that they are paying to have it edited ONE TIME. If she is involved then they are now on an hourly rate.
Have you gotten any money up front? If so, it might be time to cut bait and escort all of them to the door. Even if they haven’t paid you, you’ll feel much better by taking control. You are going to have ulcers if you let this go on.
Have a frank discussion with the client with Jr. sitting there. If they take her side, hand them their tapes and say goodby.
After all, who owns your company? You or them?
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD . -
Lisa, it is your job.
You do not have to take direction from a third party (or from the client – he or she is paying you because you can do that. You just need it to work for their audience, and /or for them to like it when it’s done. )
Let the age thing go – it doesn’t matter. What matters is what you want out of the project, what you can get out of it, and how best to go about it.
I agree with Steve’s suggestion to spell this out in front of client and junior, get the cutting room cleared so that you can make something decent out of what you have, and to terminate if client does not support you.
If there’s another time, you really won’t let anyone else take over your shoots – a lesson worth learning, as many a time there’s someone around who thinks they know, or have an idea. Mostly they have no clue. You have to be brutal, in a kind way – it’s yours to run.
Look really carefully at what is actually spelled out in your contract – if need be you can fall back on that. For the value of the job, it’s causing you too much grief – if they want the tapes, they’ll have to pay you for at least half the contract amount for your shooting and editing time to date.
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Hello Lisa,
What Steve Wargo has just laid out for you is what is called “The Take-away Close” in sales parlance.
The Take-away Close
Done well and played successfully, the take-away close is one of the most powerful negotiative ploys that you can use.Why?
What is it that everyone wants? What they cannot have. It’s human nature and when you take something away from them, they want it back.
The Take-away Close Takes Away Their Power
It is also a case where (when successfully done) the take-away close also takes away their power. Why? Because once you tell them that this is not working and that you are no longer interested in working under these conditions and they are free to take their job elsewhere, they have no power over you.In a negotiation, you only have power over me if you have something that I want. But if you don’t have anything that I want, there is little that you can do to get me to do much because I have no interest.
Where the Gamble Pays Off
As Steve Wargo points out, if you take this kind of control you have to be willing to lose it all. If you do, and if you play it well, you could also gain absolute control.By dumping the job back into their laps and leaving it in the hands of the inept, you have shown them that they are now no further along than when the whole mess started and they are in control or you are in control.
Sometimes you will win, sometimes you will lose.
But played well, this is one of the most powerful techniques in business that you will ever muster to your sometimes benefit.
There’s my two cents added to Steve’s.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
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I’ve never done it, or had to, but I’ve sometimes secretly dreamed of the moment where I could throw up my hands, dramatically turn and begin to walk away, while announcing old-Hollywood style “I’m off the project!”
This might be one of the cases where you have to do so, if the excellent advice you have been given here does not work.
It sounds like they have already cost you well over the thousand bucks in grief. That’s a tiny amount in the production world, sometimes it’s better to walk away.
And, not to be mean, but the next time you are packing up your gear for a location shoot, double check and make sure you have included your backbone. Unless this gal is the one paying your bills or has been granted authority over you by the client, they can’t tell you what to do.
Unless you let them.
T2
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Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com
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I just finished reading, “Clients or Grinders” and boy o boy, these folks are Grinders to a T (or G).
I had an hour long, and slightly heated, conversation with my client last night, we both aired our issues, and cleared a few things. I should have spoken up sooner, instead of just being cranky. I have no problem learning from my mistakes, it’s all par for course. I’m trying to stay positive, and I’m feeling more wealthy of hard earned knowledge. Anyway, I will finish the commercial, and I told her I want *HER* to love it, and that I didn’t need Junior there telling me what to do. It’s been an insulting past few weeks, and I’ve had enough of it.
Next time Grinders will be tossed back out to sea. Tell me though, what happens when you do decide midstream to not finish the product. She had already paid me my 50% upfront.
Thanks, you guys rock! 🙂
Oh, and yes, giving the camera away set a precedence to all that followed, and I pretty much got what I deserved….I know this.
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Not much to add this time, but I thought these videos would kind of help bring some humorous dimension to the conversation. Beware, some of the dialog is rather salty, and may not be suitable for the open office or those people easily offended, but the videos have a lot of truth in them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrxg2N97ucA
and the sequel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ0BlQc59jA&feature=relatedand this one to finish the package…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZjF5OtgAPI&feature=related
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the bottom line is the boss runs the show. If it’s not you, find out who it is. If the boss sent her, she is your boss.
If you were hired to be the boss, you are dropping the ball.
I am in the business of pleasing clients. Quite a bit of that time has gone to making a show worse at the request of the bill-payer. I would not be in business if I were not prepared to let go of their project.
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[Lisa Koza] “I had an hour long, and slightly heated, conversation with my client last night, we both aired our issues, and cleared a few things. I should have spoken up sooner, instead of just being cranky.”
Lisa,
Its pretty clear that you don’t feel good about allowing yourself to get cranky and this is something you need to work on. Getting cranky seldom has any payoff, instead it simply allows the other side to feel that their position is justified. On the other hand, if you calmly take a stand and express yourself well, your self-esteem rises as does your esteem in the eyes of others.
[Lisa Koza] “Tell me though, what happens when you do decide midstream to not finish the product. She had already paid me my 50% upfront.”
What happens is that you are in the driver’s seat. You have them over a barrel and they have to figure out a solution. It can range from a quick apology to a protracted trip to court, but you’re putting the resposibility to figure things out squarely in their hands.
Keep in mind, if you’re in the wrong this will end up biting you big time. So, if you have even an inkling that its your ego talking and not your brain, you’d best start figuring out a plan to get things back on track before you wind up paying for that commercial yourself.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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I’d thought I’d add my 3 cents since I’ve done such low budget spots.
For me a typical $1000 (or less) spot consists of 4 hours of shooting (no crew other than me) and 4 to 6 hours of editing. That’s spelled out in the contract and that time includes revisions. They can certainly buy more shoot or edit time if they need You have to hold a very hard and firm line to that if it’s to be profitable for you.
Certainly clients may have someone supervise the project for them but that doesn’t change the terms of the contract. If a person attempts to takes such a supervisory position on the shoot I’d immediately ask the client if this is approved by them (and yes I’ve had to do that). If the client state’s that the person’s job then the “supervisor” has the right to muck things up.
For these low budget spots, the client pays 1/2 up front and 1/2 when editing BEGINS (not ends). This is another firm position you’d need to take in order to make these kinds of jobs profitable to you. I do send the client a window dub of the shoot on DVD so they can make any assessment of the material (know what they have to work with for the edit).
If after the terms (shot and edit time) have been met and the project isn’t complete, the client has to decide if they want to pay for additional time.
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