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de interlace filter sucks !!!
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WOW! Reading this ENTIRE thread is like watching a monkey screw a football!
The people here who are “so-called” forum leaders are ignorant or don’t read and can’t comprehend the scope of the situation. Instead, they would rather talk down to someone when trying to answer a question or make the other person feel stupid (e.g. JeremyG asking to have frames sent to believe it is de-interlaced). This is such crap! And, if you go back to the VERY first post and read all the way through you will see that the experts or forum leaders didn’t answer the question and are doing now what the did then… dance around the issue and change the subject.
Zach, it was EXTREMELY clear to me that you have to know what you are doing if you are changing your shooting modes from 24p to 60i. As someone who has used the SDX-900 to shoot and produce over 40 television commercials, 100+ television episodes and countless other videos, I know you have to know what you are doing with that camera to really make anything look good and get what you want. That said, it is clear to me (and I don’t need any additional frames rendered at 100% or proof about de-interlaced footage and determining whether you are telling me the truth by posting more and more frames here) that this is a capture issue/matter.
If your footage is having the same artifacts regardless of the mode in which you are shooting then you may want to look at how you are capturing via FCP or your deck. I think you said you have a Kona card. I would talk to the people at AJA or completely re-evalute your setups in FCP rather than continuing to waste your time here with these people who don’t believe what youare saying and have no clue as to how to help. If you need them to make you feel stupid for trying to solve a problem then feel free to come back here… Or, just cut yourself with razor, pour hot sauce into the wound and then roll around on a fire ant mound. Either way you will get the same thing accomplished!
My $.02!
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Thomas A. Edison -
Yeah, I know. My stupid cheesing grin is at the top of this page and that by default, makes me an easy target for not knowing what I am doing. I get it, Seth. Thanks.
For you, I will not dance around the issue, but straight in to it and with it. Hopefully I will be more clear this time as this issue is obviously very important to you. I hope I am not wasting any more of your time as my subpar knowledge is of no use, but I encourage you will read to the end of this post. Also, I don’t think I danced around the issue as I answered every post. These forums are a two way street.
Since I am now feeling that for a seemingly unnecessary reason I have to prove my self worth after the countless free hours I give to you and your colleagues about this type of information that has been disseminated through various websites books, and god forbid, manuals, I will do my very best to explain what is happening in a way that you will understand. I did not make this up, by the way. This is how video works. I am sorry, though, as there are no pictures with this lesson. Here you go and try to follow along. As always, if you get confused, ask again. I am here for you (as a volunteer at that) even after you called me out for your misunderstandings. Because Zach knows what menu to tweak in the SDX to get from 24p to 60i does not mean he knows what to do with the footage, or combine the two different kinds of footage (no offense, Zach, I am sure you’re a bright guy). I asked Zach a few questions that he did not answer. That makes it hard to help, especially after I gave the answers more than twice in the same thread. I even offered to show Zach the difference with his own footage, but he did not respond. Zach also did not divulge if he was trying to mix 24p and 60i footage, only that he was trying to deinterlace 24p footage in the original post. If you look at his first two pictures he posted, you will see that the top original picture is progressive, which is why I questioned him in the first place. Just curious, Seth, but have you looked at 24p footage on a frame by frame basis before? Have you captured 24p NTSC video before? With a Kona? With a dv50 deck? Do you even know what settings could be changed on that deck? If so, why aren’t you offering any advice? Like I said, just curious. Also, I help many people on the very forum all at varying degress of experince. Since I cannot see what Zach is seeing, it’s best if i ask him to show me what his footage looks like to make sure we are on the same page. Getting even a seocnd of video helps. It makes it much much easier.
I will say that I worked with and edited with an SDX900 for the better part of 3 years. I know it like the back of my hand. I know what 60i is and I know what 24p is as referred to the SDX900, and also what 24pA is when referred to the SDX900. I also know what you need to do in post, as I am an editor.
You know the p in 24p? That stands for progressive which is to say without fields in a video world. However, when you shoot 24p on an NTSC camera, it gets recorded to a 60i stream (that i stands for interlaced) as NTSC tape cannot record 24 discreet progressive frames and ALWAYS records @ 29.97 (but you know that, right?). If you shoot in 24p mode (sometimes referred to as 24p Normal) there is a normal 3:2 pulldown cadence to spread the 24 frames across 30 frames to record to the SMPTE NTSC spec. That’s three fields followed by two fields (3:2). This is commonly referred to in an ABCD pattern. So if 24p is ABCD with each frame being a progressive frame, recording to a 60i stream with 3 fields, 2 fields pulldown pattern would result in AA BB BC CD DD. Each one of those capital letters represents a field of video as in HALF of a frame of resolution.
So, in Zach’s case, he is trying to deinterlace footage in which 66% of it is already progressive. That corresponds to frames AA BB and DD above. Now, since the other two frames of the cadence are made up of part of the frame around it (B & D) and also have a two fields of another discreet frame (C) deinterlacing can get tricky as you will end up with a duplicate field or a bad combination of B&C or C&D which will end up as looking like unnatural motion. So, let’s say you are going to deinterlace, that means you are taking a field from AA BB and DD and either duplicating it or most likely (as it’s the fastest) blending it. That means you are now blending a field with itself to construct a full frame, which would result in Zach’s mushy looking deinterlaced footage (that’s why I asked why he’d want to deinterlace a progressive frame). For the other two frames, you can either throw away a field and duplicate it (so in the BC frame, you’d be left with BB, and the CD frame you’d be left with CC) so if you put that sequence together you’d have AA BB BB CC DD, that’s a duplicated frame which will look like crap, that’s right, crap. If you use a blend technique you’d have A blended with itself, B blended with itself, BC blended, CD blended and D blended with itself. Again, this will not look good or maintain optimal quality.
Capturing 24p with pulldown and 60i material with a Kona card happens the exact same way, there are no differences in the way you capture it. It’s all 60i to the Kona. You end up with 29.97 fps video. You can in fact remove 3:2 pulldown with a Kona card to extract the extra fields and leave you with 24p (23.98) video, but the process is fairly complicated and in no way automatic. Your deck and Kona card have to be precisely calibrated to the frame and your logging has to be ultra meticulous.
So, back to Zach’s case. What he needs to do is conform his 60i video to look more like 24p video with pulldown (I think, he won’t tell me). This is also not an exact process. Nattress film effects will do this, It’s a plug in and takes a long time to render. http://www.nattress.com
The other thing Zach can do is use compressor for a reverse telecine process on his 24p video and receive 23.98 files for editing (that would remove those extra B and D fields and reconstruct the C frame which would leave ABCD), maintaining a progressive workflow (since that seem to be important to him as he’s trying to deinterlace, but again, he won’t tell me). He would then need to convert his 60i video to 23.98 video. Again, nattress has a plug in for this, or you can try and use compressor. It won’t look like 24p video because it’s not, but it will look less like 60i video and more like 24p video.
Hopefully that helps.
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[Seth Hancock] “My $.02! “
and how completely worthless your $.02 is too…
Since you are so wise and knowledgeable on this subject why have you only chimed in once?
and some 300 posts in 4 years you have been on the COW – when guys like jeremy do that many in a week.You are not part of the solution you are part of the problem here.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
Sorry Gary,
I would like to post more but I am extremely busy with work and shooting six days a week. I try to get here when I can and offer advice or ask questions when I can or have the time. If that makes me part of the problem then so be it. Although, I have no idea what you mean by that statement.
You want advice then here it is…
Clearly Zach is stating that he is having problems with the De-Interlace filter in FCP (hence that’s why he posted it here instead of starting a new thread – that’s simply my deduction). He says that there is an artifacting issue regardless of 24p or 60i shooting modes. Yet, many people here get fixated on this 24p thing. I have deduced by reading and comprehension that he is concerned about the crappy de-interlace filter in FCP and is looking for a solution to this problem as it seems to plague ALL footage and not just 24p footage.
Somehow this becomes a conversation about 24p, combining footage, sending a still at 100%, etc. All the guy wants to do is get help. Now, I have not experienced this before so I cannot comment on this EXACT situation. However, I have had experience with capture settings, presets and Kona settings that have altered my footage. Since I don’t have his computer in front of me then I cannot say exactly what the problem is but I can guess since this artifacting is affecting ALL of his footage that it is a capture/preset/Kona problem and I would want to get into that more rather than argue about 24p issues!
And, the last time I checked, I get paid for the work I do, the clients I answer to and the awards I win. I don’t get paid for the number of posts I make on this site. So, yes, JeremyG has me beat in the posting category. I am completely fine with that at this point in my career as I am far too busy to spend my free time explaining myself.
Oh… Snap!
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Thomas A. Edison -
Seth, it is nice to know that at least someone actually READ what I posted. I had a feeling it was some kind of capture issue since I was seeing the same thing in both 60i footage and 24p footage. I will continue to test and play with settings on the card and FCP. Thanks again!
Jeremy, for some reason you have not been able to grasp what I was asking. I thought I was not making myself clear but then when Seth understood what was being asked…well. For some reason you have been so fixated on 24p you did not clearly read any of my posts.
Because Zach knows what menu to tweak in the SDX to get from 24p to 60i does not mean he knows what to do with the footage, or combine the two different kinds of footage (no offense, Zach, I am sure you’re a bright guy)
Who said anything about combining the two types of footage into one sequence? I sure did not…oh and by the way, none taken.
Seth, but have you looked at 24p footage on a frame by frame basis before? Have you captured 24p NTSC video before? With a Kona? With a dv50 deck? Do you even know what settings could be changed on that deck? If so, why aren’t you offering any advice?
He did actually by saying that is might be a capture issue and maybe I should call AJA.
So, in Zach’s case, he is trying to deinterlace footage in which 66% of it is already progressive.Is 60i footage 66% progressive?
So, back to Zach’s case. What he needs to do is conform his 60i video to look more like 24p video with pulldown (I think, he won’t tell me).I don’t believe I said I wanted to take 60i footage and give it a 24p look.
I, as well as, everyone on here knows you “volunteer” your time to these forums but it does no good to speak in circles on issues that might be related to the topic, if the original question(s) are not being answered.
So one more time, for good fun, forget that 24p even is in question, if I shoot in 60i and I get that artifacting around images, I must be doing something wrong. So to make it simple, how should a piece of 60i footage be captured, what should the Kona LHe card bet set at, what should the sequence in FCP be set at. If all is done by your recommendations then I should not see this problem. Help if you want.
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[Zach Rutledge] “Help if you want.”
Dude, I am here to help, I seriously want to help. Am I crazy? Yep. Does it matter? No, let’s try and solve this issue. Please tell me why you said that footage was 24p? Here’s your first post with the pictures quoted, can you see why I am fixated on 24p?
[Zach Rutledge] “I am having the same problems with my footage. I shoot on a SDX900 in the 24P mode. Capturing SDI in uncompressed 8 bit using a Kona LHe card from a AJ-SD93 Deck.
I have two images to show.
The first is of the original footage without using the de-interlace feature in FCP.
The Second is after the de-interlace is applied.
As you can see the artifacting going on is extremely bad and after playing with other plugins to try to fix this, I am getting no better results. Could this be my capture set up or an in camera problem?
Any help is appreciated.”
Now, since that first picture you sent (which I assuume is the footage you are trying to deinterlace, otherwise, why woudl you post it?) that picture, that orginial picture is progressive. The second pciture you posted in the other post (after I asked you to send me an interlaced frame) is interlaced, which is probably a pulldown frame. I know this brings us full circle, but in order to solve probelms we have to get to the root of the issue and both of us have to start from the same place, otherwise we will go in circles, and both of us have to start from the same place, otherwise we will go in circles, and both of us have to start from the same place otherwise…. Any chance you can post a second around that exact original frame that you posted?
[Zach Rutledge] “So to make it simple, how should a piece of 60i footage be captured, what should the Kona LHe card bet set at, what should the sequence in FCP be set at. “
When capturing 24p or 60i footage from NTSC, you simply use the 29.97 NTSC easy setups. Since you are cpatureing 8bit unc, you would use the AJA KonaLHe 525i 29.97 8 bit easy setup. You timeline should be set for NTSC 8bit, 29.97 frame rate and set for lower field first field domininace. You would use the exact settings for 24p material as well, unless you decide to remove the pulldown in wihch case you settings would be different.
Jeremy
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[Seth Hancock] “Now, I have not experienced this before so I cannot comment on this EXACT situation. However, I have had experience with capture settings, presets and Kona settings that have altered my footage. “
So then why jump in and start bashing JG?
either help -if you think you understand better than the posting or stay out, since you do not have knowledge on the subject why fill the existing bandwidth with noise.
FYI- I can assure you that JG and I work just as much as you do, and rather than take an elitist attitude about assisting others in our own time here on the Cow, we actually try to help.
/ end of rant
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
[Seth Hancock] ” would like to post more but I am extremely busy with work and shooting six days a week. I try to get here when I can and offer advice or ask questions when I can or have the time. If that makes me part of the problem then so be it. Although, I have no idea what you mean by that statement.”
Seth, your rude comments combined with absolutely zero help only add to the noise and provide no added value whatsoever to this thread, to this forum, or to the Creative Cow. Your contribution in no way advances the dialoge or collective wisdom of the group. It is less than worthless. That certainly qualifies you as “part of the problem,” certainly not part of the solution.
You’d do best to reserve your limited time to posts that actually achieve something. This channel has more than enough noise.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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I am having the same problem. My footage was shot on a DVX100B 30P. I’ve captured in so many different ways but definitely easy setup dv ntsc on so many different timeline settings and I either get interlaced lines or I select no fields and get a more pixelated image.
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You have to change both your CLIPS and your timeline to a field dominance of none as I have stated in your other post.
Jeremy
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