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Dance Recital Question
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I am completely against copyright infringement so I’ll go ahead and post a little more info on the whole dance thing.
A lot of companies that use music in shows and recitals have an “Amateur Performance” ASCAP-BMI license that they pay about $500 a year for. This covers using the music during lessons and then during their performance for Aunt Betty and Grandma.
However, it is seldom that they have actual mechanical rights that cover the video guy shooting and selling the product. This is why I recommend that the client do the selling.
Now, as for my own history, we had an assignment a few years ago (11 now that I think about it), and the client, the country’s largest community college district, and they needed a song from Shaquille O’Niel. We called his record company and left a detailed message. The owner of the label called us at home that evening and thanked us for asking because most people just run with it. He gave us a verbal clearance on he phone and followed with a legal document the next day. But, what he told us was that they have this problem every day and it would take a full time 20 person legal team to stay on top of it. He went on to say that it costs him a thousand bucks to send a cease and desist order to someone by the time they go through finding them, getting an address and putting the wheels in motion with the attorney’s office. And this is with in-house council. Next, he said that they realize that people “use” their music all of the time and it took 10 years just to get party DJ’s to sign license agreements. Additionally, they do not consider all of this minor stuff to be stealing because the people are not really trying to steal anything. They’re just “using” it.
So, even though it’s not really right, they really don’t have a problem unless they feel that they have actually been injured (financially). This was different for the DJ business because that’s how the DJs made millions. One thing he said was that it is actually illegal to play a CD in public. So, at what point do you press the issue? Napster is a good example of when the legal battle starts.
One thing that a lot of people don’t know is that ASCAP-BMI pays rewards for blatant CR infringement. People who work hotel AV can fetch some $$ by turning in the big companies who are playing “We are the Champions” or whatever.
So. my advise is “Don’t do it” but if you do, nobody really cares.
On another note, the music industry is going after some housewife who decided that CDs are too expensive and she downloaded a bunch of music, made hundreds of CDs and sold them to her children’s friends. They want $20K from her and they are not giving up.
One more thing: When we needed the college piece, they also wanted a piece from Smashing Pumpkins. That was $100,000. We didn’t buy it.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1. -
Thanks for taking the time to explain things. Personally, I really do want to honor copyright laws and make sure artists get paid — it’s what’s fair, it’s what’s ethical.
But in actual practice, it is very frustrating. If I do what’s right and follow the law, I cannot compete with some guy shooting dance recitals, band competitions, school productions, whatever, who never even gives copyright laws a second thought. One time, a client got mad at me and said I was just being lazy and a liar, when I refused to let him put a performance of a copyrighted song in a video. In the end, I caved, because I really needed the job.
It’s just that, at the level that I am (and I presume Tyler is) working, there is much less understanding among our clients of copyright laws and implications. And we are (or at least I am) competing with other students and home-grown videographers who don’t mind taking on the copyright risk.
I really do want to do what’s right and fair, but I’m tired of fighting with clients to convince them that it’s a good thing — because the client ends up spending more money, or I get paid less, or they take the job to someone that isn’t a stickler for this kind of stuff.
Also, in my experience, when we do go through the work to secure and pay for rights, often more money is spent on people-hours to contact people and companies, deal with paperwork, etc. It’s a lot of hassle, a lot of middleman. And it seems each artist and record label has different requirements, different limitations — there is almost nothing standardized about the procedure.
Sorry, I suppose I’m just venting now. I’m just trying to make the best of the situation while doing my best to do what’s right. And I’m tired of clients treating me like the bad guy when I tell them they have to get releases to use their favorite song. If there’d be some way to just shift all that responsibility and liability to the client and force them to make the moral call without me being a party to it, that’d be so much easier.
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Tyler,
The answer is “It’s wrong to do but you’ll probably get away with it and no one will ever know”. We do not want to give you any bad advise and you’ll have to decide.
We use a gal in New York when we have these questions. http://www.bzrights.com
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1. -
What we need is a document that you put in front of the client who says that “It’s all taken care of”. The document needs to state that the client has announced that they have all necessary music rights and that they, and they alone are responsible for any violations and that they will bear all legal expense and pay all legal fees and that they are completely responsible if any court action arises out of any said violation etc, etc etc. They are also responsible if said video company suffers any loss or embarrassment bla bla bla.
If you could ask the question, get the answer and then whip out the document that they now have to sign in front of witnesses, who must also sign, I think most would get cold feet and refuse to sign your “silly paper”.
I’ve gotten to the point where I refuse to even discuss it.
Now that I’ve brought up the silly paper, I think I’ll talk to my rights people and see what I can really do. I talked about it for years. It’s time for action. (marching music please! “Clearanced” marching music, at that)
I’ll copyright it and license it to all of you if you want. Cheap, of course.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1. -
I feel your pain, Tyler. Not to add to your paranoia, but this thread will probably show up in a Google search.
I couldn’t agree more with the suggestion that “we the people” (of whatever nation) need to start speaking up about issues of copyright and fair use. I was threatened by the attorneys of a major company because I asked whether I could use a still photograph I owned in a documentary; the image showed a peasant wearing a tee-shirt with an American logo on it. I probably should have ignored the letter, because the point of using the image was to show the global penetration of American cultural icons, and I now believe that would be “fair use.” For me, it was just one shot and I took it out, but there are examples of documentarians having their projects killed or severely damaged in similar situations.
Yesterday I heard a great presentation by John Palfrey of Harvard’s Berkman Center for Internet and Society; his research shows that the current rights system is widely ignored by the younger generation and needs radical reform for the sake of both the creator and the user. Yet the huge media companies continue to use the old intimidation tactics of screwing a few people royally as “examples,” rather than adjust to the new digital reality.
If you want to do something about this, there are a number of good avenues, including supporting the potential congressional candidacy of Lawrence Lessig of Stanford. Look up “fair use” and “bound by law” on Google where, as I have to remind you, this whole thread is probably already indexed.
That was a great suggestion to use a form letter requiring clients to certify that they own the rights to such-and-such for such-and-such use. A good client should actually appreciate your thoughtfulness, as they are a lot more likely to get sued than you (they have more MONEY). Does anyone know of a good letter on the Net that we could all rip off? Oops….
Bob C
MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 10 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650 -
Bob,
I was reading along merrily thinking to myself that “Bob, you have written a nice thoughtful reply here,” when suddenly my mental train jumped the tracks and was derailed as I read…
[Bob Cole] “That was a great suggestion to use a form letter requiring clients to certify that they own the rights to such-and-such for such-and-such use. A good client should actually appreciate your thoughtfulness, as they are a lot more likely to get sued than you (they have more MONEY).”
This sounds logical and reasonable but it legally doesn’t hold an ounce (or 0.029 liters) of enforceability. As many others have cited in this thread and elsewhere, you cannot absolve yourself of legal culpability by participating in an illegal activity with a form fixing the blame on someone else. In most countries of the world, the fact is that all participants in a crime share equal responsibility — at least in theory.
No such form exists (that I have ever seen) and there is nowhere to download one as it would hold absolutely no legal weight in the present scheme of things.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronlindeboom
Publisher, Creative COW Magazine
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[Ron Lindeboom] “No such form exists (that I have ever seen) and there is nowhere to download one as it would hold absolutely no legal weight in the present scheme of things.”
No, Ron, we’re still on the same wavelength. I was assuming that the client had made or could make a legal arrangement for use, as in, for example, a music library which is licensed by usage. Such a letter would help to remind the client of his/her obligation to report. Another example would be the incidental and unavoidable background presence of licensed music at an event for which there is some other limited license arrangement. I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear about that, because the context of the thread was the dance recital situation, which has red flags flying all over it. You’re absolutely right to object to the idea of a cop-out letter.
By the way, some music libraries have made sound-similar cuts of famous compositions which can help mollify a client and keep things legal at the same time.
If Fair Use is an issue for you, take a look at https://www.law.duke.edu/cspd/comics/. Another good page is the bio of Lawrence Lessig at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Lessig.
Thanks for the compliment Ron!
bob
MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 10 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650 -
[Ron Lindeboom] “No such form exists (that I have ever seen) and there is nowhere to download one as it would hold absolutely no legal weight in the present scheme of things.”
Hey! I wrote that. What I was trying to get across is that clients love to say “I have it covered” when they really mean “I don’t care”. As much as it wouldn’y hold legal water, it might make them think about it and back off from the demand. How many of them actually know anything about copyright law in our business. They’re usually corporate bullies who are never held accountable.
But, this brought something up in my little brain:
I sat across from a client a few months ago talking about a cruise ship promotional project. His present ad piece has a piece of Frank Sinatra’s “Fly me to the Moon”. I asked if he had the rights to the song and his astounding answer was “I don’t need the rights to that. They would go after the production company, not me”. I stood up, without a word, and left. After all, what could you possibly say to someone like that?His office person called me later and asked if I would be coming back. What a hoot!
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1. -
Actually, I didn’t write that bit … But I did suggest it.
One more thing to add. Years ago, in a land far far away, when were cranking out VHS tapes by the hundreds in my garage, we could not afford Macrovision, so, we put a sticker on the tapes that said “Protected by the SNT anti-copy process. We are in no way liable for any damage that occurs if someone should attempt to copy this tape.” Followed by some federal law number that has to do with copyright. It’s amazing how many people were scared to death that their house would burn to the ground if they hit record while our tape was in a machine.
This could fall under the catagory of “Lies that work”.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1. -
This is an urban legend:
A man was so proud of his young child’s ballet recital, featuring music from the Little Mermaid, that he sent the videotape to Disney. Disney sued him.
I don’t know if that is a true story, but it is in the spirit of this thread.
Someone mentioned sound-alike stock music. That is a very good idea.
This makes me think of nearly every NBC made for tv movie – they all use no-name bands doing covers of hits. To the audience, this background music is familiar, but no doubt a lot cheaper for the network.
The same issue applies to shooting a wedding.
Just say no.
Mike
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