Dance Recital Question

[Mick Haensler]

[Ron Lindeboom] “[Mick Haensler] “When you have a magazine claiming to be “The Authority in Event Videography” not only endorsing breaking copyright laws but printing articles showing you how to do it, it is highly highly doubtful the authorities will come a knockin. The bigger issue is getting paid a reasonable amount for the gig.”

I would beg to disagree here. The bigger issue is the copyrights which have been violated by both parties in this scenario”

My apologies Ron. I was in a hurry when I wrote that. I didn’t mean to down play the seriousness of breaking copyright laws. I just know from past experience that the Event Videography Industry seems to be OK with it which is one of the reasons I got out of it. Bottom line, if the Feds decided to make an example of someone, the entire industry would crumble….IMHO. Just look at the awards videos on the 4ever Group website. Almost every one is using copyrighted music. After spending 3 months unsuccessfully trying to get the rights to an 80’s pop song from Warner for an ad campaign I’m working on, I doubt very much any of these award winners secured the rights to their productions. I am open to being compeltely wrong on that.

Mick Haensler
Higher Ground Media

[Ron Lindeboom]

You don’t owe me an apology, Mick, and I was not taking issue with what you said, per se. I was more concerned as to a magazine encouraging this kind of thing. That was my real issue.

My apologies to you for not being clearer about that.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronlindeboom
Publisher, Creative COW Magazine
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[Mark Suszko]

Look, by no means do I claim the title of professional ethicist or legal counsel.

But a major rule of thumb to look at that has always worked for me is: “did any money change hands at any point?”

If it did, that’s the place to begin looking at liability issues. Anybody who turned over a buck in the perpetration of the copyright violation could potentially get dragged into the mess.

If the dance school charges tickets or admission, they are in trouble potentially because they got money in exchange for performing the work without all the clearances. If you say all you were doing was documenting the event, and you recorded uncleared music, and they paid you to record that, you may still be in some lesser amount of potential trouble, at least you’re going to get hit for the amount you were paid.

You may say that this is so unlikely as to be in the category of lightning strikes. Fair enough. But I remember an incident that was relatively famous. A New Jersey corner bar owner had Bruce Springsteen on his jukebox. An ASCAP guy stopped in to have a brew. Next thing you know, the bar owner gets a CAD letter from Bruce’s attorneys. A local theater recently was having public audience sing-alongs to a popular TV show (the all-singing episode of Buffy The vampire Slayer, a show that’s not even on the air any more) just as a goof and a fun charity fundraiser. Killed by the Fox Network and production company, the charity barely got away with being able to keep what had already been raised. An Italian restaurant had “Sopranos Night”. Cancelled by lawyers. Same with another such place playing Sinatra over the PA.

Nowadays, there are any number of people that would like to make a fast buck turning in violators for a bounty. Or what if some lawyer or paralegal in the audience gets miffed that his 200-pound daughter Elsie didn’t get the lead in the Swan Lake bit, had to settle for being in the chorus, and decides to anonymously turn in the school as revenge? You think things like that don’t or can’t happen? You can bet on human nature, friend, it can and does.

I read in some music magazine a while back about a guy that made a demo video for one of the big music expo shows to demonstrate some product, and he used uncleared Pink Floyd music for the big screen, big sound system demo. Guy comes up to him at the trade show and hangs around a bit, making admiring comments here and there about how nice the music seemed to cut with the images. It was David Gilmour. AWKWARD!

Okay, so you’re not making any demos like that. What about stuff for your OWN demo reel though? Do you think showing clips with the uncleared music is going to impress a prospective boss? Or show him you don’t know what the score is professionally. Meh, maybe it won’t make a difference. Then again, it might. Feel free to call me over-anxious on this. When you get to my age, and have more to lose, lots of things that are minor risks end up being less worth taking, from hanging out of Jet Rangers with no safety line, to betting my income and savings that somebody with an axe to grind will not take the time to rat me out to some corporation with a lot of money and legal resources I can’t afford to fight.

Hate it? I do too. Defying or ignoring the law is not the answer here; the answer is to change what’s wrong or unjust or plain impractical in the law. Make your legislators aware of your problems and feelings about the state of copyright in this country. Tell them we need some intermediate step, maybe something like the system in Australia that basically allows wedding video makers to use the copyrighted songs in limited ways for a reasonable flat fee and no 9 months of paperwork and contacting different rights holders who each have different rules and amounts they want. We need some kind of middle ground that respects and preserves copyrights but reduces the more ridiculous barriers and threats of lawsuits. Right now, media company lobbyists like Disney and Sony run the table on how the laws are made and whom they serve. You need to start talking to legislators as voters, as an industry, as a constituency needing remedy. An election year is the best time to get their attention.

[Christopher Wright]

I don’t know how your local dance company works, but I do many dance performances where the local dance company pays for the rights to use both the music and choreography (if it isn’t their own original choreography) and also acquires the rights to sell DVDs of the performance as fund-raising for their non-profit dance companies as well.

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[Tyler Groom]

So how do I find out if they have the rights to perform and sell dvd’s?

[Ryan Mast]

Ask to see the letters or emails they got from the rights holders (or administrators). They should say something about a mechanical license, synchronization license — something to that effect. Sometimes the papers will tell you what precisely to put in the credits for that song.

A tangential note and question… I understand that some licenses for stage productions state that they are allowed to make one recording of the performance for review and rehearsal purposes, without paying for and securing any extra rights. So, if the performers hire me to tape the performance only for “rehearsal purposes,” am I liable if they take that recording, duplicate it, and sell it? There’s a couple situations where I was very skittish about copyrights, but the client didn’t care about the risk and said they were happy to take all responsibility — is there any way to document that so that I’m not liable in that situation, and that the client is solely responsible and liable for securing permission from copyright holders?

[Todd Terry]

[Ryan Mast] “is there any way to document that so that I’m not liable in that situation, and that the client is solely responsible and liable for securing permission from copyright holders?”

Doesn’t matter. Just because a client might tell you “It’s ok, I will take the heat” or even “I’ve taken care of the licenses, don’t worry about it” doesn’t remove you from responsbility if they have not taken proper legal means to protect both themselves and you.

In an extreme analogy, if your buddy needs money and asks you to rob a bank (“I’ll drive the getaway car, but you’re so much better with people”) and tells you not to worry about it that if you get caught he will take the blame… well… I’m sure you can imagine how that would end up.

Extreme example, I’ll admit… but just having a client tell you it’s ok to do something illegal doesn’t make it any less so.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Tyler Groom]

SO can anyone show me an example of a videographer getting taken to court because they filmed a school dance recital and sold dvds?

[Mark Suszko]

Ryan, so you’re asking, if a guy is going to commit some kind of crime, grift, or tortable offense, using you to assist in it and enable it, but he writes you some kind of a “get out of jail free” note saying you knew what they were doing was against the rules but it’s all on him, you were just the getaway driver, and not to go after you in any way, some judge is bound to honor that? Doesn’t sound that great out loud, does it? Man, if I could just have one of those letters or marque like legal pirates used to have, huh?:-) ( I’m being playful to make my point, and not running you down, really, just pointing out the fallacies here and you’re not the first to ask that question, it’s a good question to ask.)

The crook or in this case copyright violator doesn’t have the authority in the first place to give you some kind of absolution or immunity. Which is what essentially you’re asking when you ask for a waiver of responsibility like this. How much use sucha thing will be in court is questionable, IMO.

(IANALawyer but did stay at a Holiday Inn Express)

Bottom line: You are a legal adult that made a free-will choice to do or not do something, for pay, the law assumes you know what the rules are before you do that. If you are part of the plan to make money off the copyright without clearance, I think you’re quite possibly in danger of
taking the fall with the guy if somebody sues.

But as has been suggested, maybe the dance school DID get the right kinds of permissions, and we’re all haring off in the wrong direction for nothing…

I’ve heard of that one-recording-only thing, but the way I’ve heard it from theater friends, it usually has to be erased at some point after its been used a time or two, or you’re in breach of contract.

Which makes sense if you think it through: all these people work very hard for long hours, usually without much advance pay to create the stage performance so you can come experience it live. To sell or give away copies to an audience is to rob them of the chance to do their thing more often, to discourage more people from coming out to the show instead, and by extension steals from the actors or dancers chance to make their money and their living from doing their thing. Even if it was legal, it doesn’t sound very moral.

Myself, I think I could be okay with shooting it for free just so the actors have a copy for themselves. I have done that many times for friends who have written and performed their own material so they own all the rights to start with. For me and these friends, the copyrights issues are moot.

[Mark Suszko]

In a message dated 2/23/08 6:10:20 PM, businessmarketing@creativecow.net writes:
“SO can anyone show me an example of a videographer getting taken to court because they filmed a school dance recital and sold dvds?”

From a fast google search:

https://www.news.com/2100-1030_3-6156021.html

and

https://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061117/myspace_universal.html?.v=7

Quote from another discussion thread via google search:
May 15th, 2003, 08:22 AM
“Rick, the problem is that the same law that protects the big bad recording industry also protects the little guy (you and me). I doubt you’ll see it that way until you’ve had something that you’ve created ripped off. Believe me it’s the same feeling as having your car stolen. I know because I’ve had both happen to me.

I was walking through JC Penny one day and saw a T-shirt with my photograph on it. I bought a shirt and contacted my attorney. The T-shirt creator had seen the image in a book and virtually copied it directly to the shirt (he took a couple of branches out of the background). To make a long story short, I got $10,000 for the image. I feel full justified in getting paid for the damages I suffered and am thankful there are laws that protect the little guys.”

Here’s another quote from the google search:

“My Voice, My Choice
Page 7 of 8

So, copyright violations are civil, not criminal. Even if I get caught, what’s the worst they can do to me?

First, while copyright violations are indeed civil and not criminal, new laws allow criminal prosecution in cases where over 10 copies of protected material and/or 2500.00 was transacted in the process of copying. So, if you make 25 copies of a wedding video, and you were paid more than 2500.00 for the shooting, editing, and delivery of that wedding video, watch out. Most attorneys will admit that this law is more or less untested at lower levels but it does exist and is a straw to be grasped by the copyright holder. [an error occurred while processing this directive]How long do copyrights last? Can I just wait for the copyright to expire and then use the copyrighted media?

Copyrighted works are generally protected for the life of the author plus seventy years, or in the case of works made for hire, ninety-five years from the date of first publication, or ninety five years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first. So, don’t wait up too long if the work you want to use is fairly recent in nature. You’ll be well past grey by the time it’s available. The term used to be shorter, but the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act changed all this in 1998. You’ve noticed that the local drugstore has signs that say “Cigarettes sold to those born before 1985 ? Similarly, due to the SBCTEA, the first year that all works enter public domain will be 2019, when works from 1923 become PD, or Public Domain.

I shoot a lot of dance recitals and then sell the videos to the parents. The dance instructor has since informed me that her dance choreography is copyrighted and I can’t sell the videos without paying her a royalty and obtaining her permission. She says I’m covered for recording the music and I believe her because the dance studio has an ASCAP sticker on the window.

The dance instructor is right in saying that the dance choreography is copyrighted. She is wrong in saying that you are covered for the music because she pays ASCAP or BMI fees. ASCAP and BMI cannot and do not issue sync licenses. Unless the music being danced to is Work For Hire composition, you cannot make reproductions of the dance recital, period, without a sync license issued by the copyright holder or their representatives. ”

…………
Those were all quotes pulled from the first quick search I did.

Okay, me again now.
No, I did not find you a specific case from that quick a search, then again I don’t have Lexis/Nexis or the specific legal case database access of a law firm. So I guess logically, that means you’re in the clear Ryan, forget everybody’s admonitions against it, go ahead, the bell and collar are over there, the litter box is over that-away… and the cat is nearby somewhere. You have absolutely nothing to worry about, we’re all just worry-warts cowed by nonexistent boogeymen…..you are much too small to ever be noticed or sued by anyone. And if they DID sue you, no law firm will EVER search the net for your real name in connection with this topic and all the advice that’s been traded over your inquiries. So you’re as safe as houses. Really.

We’ll just stand over here by the mouse hole with the silly cowards and watch and root for you from here. Just one question:

Can I have your stuff later?

🙂