Color shift problem with After Effects, Blackmagic and Tiger

[Chris Tomberlin]

Richard,

As you may recall, I too have noticed these issues. I have done extensive testing, and tried to make as much noise about this as possible, but have not received any promising feedback from anybody anywhere. Here are some links to threads that go through many of these issues in some detail:

https://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_post.cgi?forumid=124&postid=855174

https://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_post.cgi?forumid=124&postid=855074

I have continued testing with the Apple uncompressed 10-bit codec and arrived at the following conclusions:

1) There is a bug (likely in the desktop video output component) of the current BMD drivers in Tiger. This bug outputs an incorrectly low gamma from After Effects to the NTSC monitor. It does not, however, affect the rendered file. A grayscale ramp that displays an incorrect gamma curve on a scope while viewing in AE, will render correctly and display a proper gamma curve from FCP. This bug makes proper color-corrections in AE difficult, if not nearly impossible. This problem does not exist with an AJA iO setup, or when booted in Panther.

2) Motion, Compressor, FinalTouch HD, and Quicktime exports of the grayscale ramp to the apple uncompressed 10-bit codec ALL render a correct gamma curve in Tiger.

3) After Effects, in Tiger, does not properly recognize the new version (1.2) of the Apple uncompressed 10-bit codec when in 16bit mode. This is what is causing the green lines on the footage when you put AE in 16bit mode.

The fact that the gamma curves are all correct in Motion, Compressor, FCP and Quicktime indicates that when apple changed the 10-bit codec, they at least made sure the production suite was consistent in adopting the change. After Effects is the only odd-man out here, so the green line issue has to be the way AE 6.5.1 is handling that codec in Tiger. I believe an update to AE is in order, and would call for making noise in the appropriate forum as well as contacting Adobe.

The display issue listed in #1 would appear to be a BMD issue, and has not yet been resolved. I suppose that this could also be an AE problem, but seems to point at BMD.

Now, on a bit of a rant. I was an early adopter of FCP, and early to do higher end work with desktop tools. It has been a slow, uphill battle with many clients to convince them that with the proper experience, a person could create on a desktop system comprised of FCP, AE, and an assorted bag of other tools a product of the same quality as you would get from a far more expensive box. Issues like this that are slow to be addressed by all the developers involved, undermine that whole struggle. Most of us rely on these tools to feed our families, and when they are broken it is extremely stressful. Sure, I could just work in Panther, but then, why did I buy several copies of the FCP suite? I did it so that I could meet the needs of my clients. Well, Apple, Adobe, BMD; we are YOUR clients. We have some needs here that need to be met.

Chris Tomberlin
OutPost Pictures

[Richard Squires]

Hi Chris

Thanks for that and I agree with you.

It galls me to spend money on upgrades that break my workflow rather than enhance it. Yes it gets fixed in a couple of months, but my money has already left the building, with the promise of a better more productive workflow evaporating in front of my eyes. I am currently still working in Panther with an install of FCP 5 and Motion 2 on a Tiger partition doing sweet you know what. Very annoying indeed. I have looked at the AE forum and haven’t seen any posts about this issue. I’ll do a bit more digging though

cheers

Richard

[Matt Dowling]

Hi Chris,

Hopefully i can clear a bit of this up with you.

[Chris Tomberlin] “1) There is a bug (likely in the desktop video output component) of the current BMD drivers in Tiger. This bug outputs an incorrectly low gamma from After Effects to the NTSC monitor. It does not, however, affect the rendered file. A grayscale ramp that displays an incorrect gamma curve on a scope while viewing in AE, will render correctly and display a proper gamma curve from FCP. This bug makes proper color-corrections in AE difficult, if not nearly impossible. “

We can do something about that and have it planned in the next release which will be sometime this week.

[Chris Tomberlin] “3) After Effects, in Tiger, does not properly recognize the new version (1.2) of the Apple uncompressed 10-bit codec when in 16bit mode. This is what is causing the green lines on the footage when you put AE in 16bit mode.
“

Yeh, we see the same thing. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that. We have been discussing this issue with Apple. The only way i can think of, that would get around that is to remove the Apple codec from the system and replace it with the BMD 10 bit codec. If both were left in then QT would randomly choose one or the other to render to which could cause gamma problems in itself. There reason for this is that both codecs are V210 and have the fourcc.

Cheers,

Regards,

Matt
Blackmagic Design

[Felix Mack]

So, does that mean that in Tiger is it possible to remove the Apple 10bit and replace it with Black Magic 10bit? That would make me very very happy . . .

-Felix

[Matt Dowling]

Hi Felix,

Yes, if you go to /library/QuickTime and take the Apple uncompressed codecs out of that folder and put the Blackmagic 10 bit codec in
/library/QuickTime (you can get just the codec from our support page), this will help you guys out until we have discussed further with Apple a suitable solution for the Apple uncompressed codec.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Regards,

Matt
Blackmagic Design

[Felix Mack]

Great – so far this seems to fix all my gamma issues, including that previously rendred BM10bit files (10.3.9/FCP4.5) from AE appear at the correct brightness level in QtPlayer again.

Thanks.

[Florian Hirschmann]

Today I (re)-renderd a project in After Effects, I created some weeks ago with the Decklink 5-Beta drivers. The new uncompressed 10 Bit video is brighter then the old one I rendered with the beta drivers – but the old one has exactly the same brightness as the videopreview of after effects. With the Beta drivers, there was no difference between preview and rendering. When I use Echo Fire as videooutput in After Effects I can get both brightness levels: By selecting Decklink PAL RGB within Echo Fire I get the darker preview (same brightness as the old rendering with the Beta drivers) and by selecting Decklink PAL 10 Bit I get a brighter Preview (like the new rendering). I am quite confused right now as I have to work on visual effects for a tv-movie and don’t knwo how to get a right peview and a right rendering. I am not sure if the preview is to dark or the rendering to bright….

Florian

[Richard Squires]

Thanks Matt for clearing this up.

I will do this and report back.

One thing. Will doing this affect Apples suite of programs. I assume some of the easy setups in FCP will need to access the Apple Uncompressed codec and what happens if they don’t find it?

regards

Richard

[Chris Tomberlin]

Matt,

Thank you for addressing these issues, and responding to our posts. I am truly grateful, but why did it take so long to get any word from you guys on this? Most of these issues started showing up here on the forum about a month ago. I mentioned in an earlier post that perhaps the quick response from Blackmagic on past issues has spoiled me, and if that is the case, then you just set a high bar in the early days! That has always been one of the great things about BMD; please don’t forget about us out here in the trenches.

OK, enough of that. I’m glad you’ve nailed down the display issues in AE. I look forward to the new release.

[Matt Dowling] “The only way i can think of, that would get around that is to remove the Apple codec from the system and replace it with the BMD 10 bit codec.”

When I first read the above, I think I misunderstood, because I removed the 1.2 version of “FCP Uncompressed 422.component” from the QT folder and then installed the Blackmagic (software only) codec. Of course, this gave no video output from FCP or AE. SO, I reinstalled the Blackmagic 5.0 drivers. I was surprised to find that there was now a “FCP Uncompressed 422.component” back in the quicktime folder. Apparently, the version 1.1 of “FCP Uncompressed 422.component” is part of the Blackmagic 5.0 install.

Now, this fixes everything in AE (except the issue to be resolved later this week), but how will it affect FCP 5.02? Everything seems to play back and display properly, but is there going to be a problem using the 1.1 version of the FCP Uncompressed 422.component? FCP 5.02 installs the 1.2 version presumably for a good reason, though as we’ve seen, it certainly seems to do more harm than good. Any chance you could just get Apple to ditch their 10-bit codec, license the Blackmagic codec, and call it a day?

One last thing. A couple of us here on the forum have spent quite a bit of time troubleshooting this stuff, and have provided BMD with detailed info on what we have found. Does that really help you, or are we just wasting a lot of our time?

Thanks
Chris Tomberlin
OutPost Pictures

[Matt Dowling]

Hi Chris,

Sorry for the length of the response but there is a fair bit to cover.

[Chris Tomberlin] “Thank you for addressing these issues, and responding to our posts. I am truly grateful, but why did it take so long to get any word from you guys on this? Most of these issues started showing up here on the forum about a month ago. I mentioned in an earlier post that perhaps the quick response from Blackmagic on past issues has spoiled me, and if that is the case, then you just set a high bar in the early days! That has always been one of the great things about BMD; please don’t forget about us out here in the trenches.”

My apologies for the delayed action. Sometimes we just don’t get the chance to get on the Cow as much as we would like. Please feel free to mail me offline if you are not getting satisfactory answers to your questions or concerns.

[Chris Tomberlin] “When I first read the above, I think I misunderstood, because I removed the 1.2 version of “FCP Uncompressed 422.component” from the QT folder and then installed the Blackmagic (software only) codec. Of course, this gave no video output from FCP or AE. SO, I reinstalled the Blackmagic 5.0 drivers. I was surprised to find that there was now a “FCP Uncompressed 422.component” back in the quicktime folder. Apparently, the version 1.1 of “FCP Uncompressed 422.component” is part of the Blackmagic 5.0 install.”

The Apple codecs have been a part of our installer since 5.0.

[Chris Tomberlin] “Now, this fixes everything in AE (except the issue to be resolved later this week), but how will it affect FCP 5.02? Everything seems to play back and display properly, but is there going to be a problem using the 1.1 version of the FCP Uncompressed 422.component? FCP 5.02 installs the 1.2 version presumably for a good reason, though as we’ve seen, it certainly seems to do more harm than good. Any chance you could just get Apple to ditch their 10-bit codec, license the Blackmagic codec, and call it a day?”

There wont be a problem as both the BMD and Apple codecs have the same fourCC. The 1.2 Apple codec was done to address some Shake issues. We are still discussing with Apple what is the best we can both tackle this issue.

[Chris Tomberlin] “One last thing. A couple of us here on the forum have spent quite a bit of time troubleshooting this stuff, and have provided BMD with detailed info on what we have found. Does that really help you, or are we just wasting a lot of our time?”

ABSOLUTELY NOT a waste of time! Please keep the feedback coming as much as possible – it is vital to us to get your feedback on everything, this contributes greatly to how and what we develop. Thanks for all the detailed feedback to date!

Cheers

Regards,

Matt
Blackmagic Design