Cinema Tools question URGENT!

[Tom Wolsky]

Doesn’t the SD code match the HD source? The TC on the SD record deck should be jam synced to the source deck to copy the TC over to SD side.

All the best,

Tom

Author: “Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials” and “Final Cut Express 2 Editing Workshop” Class on Demand “Complete Training for FCP5” and “Final Cut Express Made Easy” DVDs

[Gary Adcock]

[Neil001] “They will be transfering the camera tapes (selects) to SD digibeta for editing. The online willl be done from the camera original tapes.”

first mistake- why jump thru the 29,97 – 23.98 hoops for an offline. Digitize from the masters as DVCPROHD with out need to re-conform or maintain the Dbase for both NTSC and HD content. Kona HD capture cards allow for realtime NTSC playback / Playout of the HD content

“I was sent a test FLX and ALE files from the telecine facility who are going to be syncing the double system audio.” Most people do not use flex files for HDCam masters. They are used to working with Avids -editing this way in FCP is a waste of time and resources.

“Unless I’m missing something CINEMA TOOLS only allows for 2 timecode logs and 1 key code number log. But not a third TC log.” correct – it is used for film editing and the Keycode is used in place of timecode on the labrolls.
Again save yourself the hassles and edit at 23.98 in DVCPROHD. The you only have 1 Timebase to consider.

“Woudn’t this be a fairly common work flow?”
Actually No, not even in LA. for all the reasons I have stated.

This is taking an archaic NTSC offline Avid workflow and trying to do something similar in FCP. you need to rethink the process when working with different tools. – and you have to tell people what you need.
Double Sync Sound is great. Yet it does not take all of this hassle to work with it in HD.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Neil001]

The HD code and the SD code don’t match – the SD code is continous.

[Neil001]

Gary,
Thanks for your response. I must admit I do come from an Avid background. But this is my third film with FCP, however the other 2 were shot on film so the work flow was more familiar. I hope you can bear with me a little… are you suggesting capturing from the masters uncompressed? I don’t have the drives for that. If I captured from DVCPROHD with only one timebase to consider, how would the audio people conform the original sound?

[Joseph Owens]

Given that some “Deliverables” guidelines specifically state that material shot in 23.98 SHALL BE EDITED on a 23.98 timeline, I have to wonder why people do this to themselves and A) violate the agreement with their broadcaster, and B) screw things up with the potentially disastrous results of contending with the consequences of mixing frame rates/ pulldown.
All for the dubious objective of reducing storage requirements by going to what is , when you think about it, just another codec — ie, DigiBeta. Re-compress to DVCHD, or whatever, and keep it the same aspect ratio and frame rate. Edit it in its native frame rate! Re-connect to the original media. You are going to be choosing edit points (in 29.97) that don’t exist in 24-frame land. That is why there is 3:2 pull down. The math doesn’t work between 24 and 30 — try to make twelve 2-frame cuts with 24 frame material on a 30 frame timeline sometime if you don’t know what I mean. You would actually need to edit the material on a 59.94 (field-based) timeline to keep it at least coherent, but it still won’t be even. Or, here’s something simple — To make 4 evenly spaced edits on a 24 frame timeline is easy — cut every 6 frames. Can you do this on a 29.97 timeline? No. You can only cut every 7 or 8 frames to achieve a similar result, but you can’t get exactly the same frame boundary. Same works(or rather, DOESN’T work) in reverse — How to do five cuts / sec on a 24 frame timeline — irrational math.

There, I feel better now…

JPO

[John Pale]

There is no need to involve SD in the editing equation. Editing in the DVCPRO HD codec (not talking about uncompressed HD) is actually less demanding than SD Uncompressed video, so the storage needs are manageable. You can operate entirely in one timebase and stay in HD…greatly simplifying the editing process.

[Neil001]

Thanks for the input.
Am I to capture from the orignal camera tapes? I don’t have a DVCPRO HD deck.
How do you handle the double system audio?

[Neil001]

I was planning to edit in 23.98 timeline. The production company is making an SD tape (because they’re “saving money”) with circled takes and syncing the audio from the original DATS. I need to provide an AUDIO EDL. Also I don’t own a DVCPRO – HD deck. I only have a DV deck. I need to provide an EDL that reflects the TC on the original camera tapes.

[Joseph Owens]

You don’t need a DVCPro deck… capture from the original tapes using a compressed codec like DVCPro… you have the option of caturing footage in a number of ways, its native format only being one of them.

As far as “Merging Clips From Dual System Video and Audio” goes, review the 7 pages of discussion in the Final Cut Manual: Book Two, Chapter 3, pages 45-51. that pretty much covers the issue.

JPO

[Joseph Owens]

“I was planning to edit in 23.98 timeline. The production company is making an SD tape (because they’re “saving money”) with circled takes and syncing the audio from the original DATS. I need to provide an AUDIO EDL. Also I don’t own a DVCPRO – HD deck. I only have a DV deck. I need to provide an EDL that reflects the TC on the original camera tapes. ”

They’re saving money how?… by adding this layer of complexity plus stock plus operator plus machine rate plus what else?

I expect you should be able to export at least an OMF out of Final Cut… if not a complete timeline/ Soundtrack PRO-like list, and if that doesn’t work… CMX…?
And I can’t think of a better way of providing an original source code EDL than by using the ORIGINAL SOURCE CODE, especially if its 23.98, ie use the camera originals and you know what you have got.

Somebody has sold your production company a ‘bill of goods’ to bolster their “dailies” service….
This doesn’t sound like what Cinema Tools was designed to do…

JPO