Cannon , JVC, SONY, Panasonic HDV vanishing?

[Chris Borjis]

[Shane Ross] “Not worse in image quality…worse in cooperating with NLEs. Updates to OS and FCP versions tend to break compatibility with that format.”

really? I’ve not had that problem at all with the JVC HDV format.

[Fred Miller]

I really don’t like the fact that HDV cameras are marketed as shooting 24p. But in reality it’s “wrapped a in 29.97 container.” What a confusing pain in the… I still don’t get it. No matter how many times I read it. And it adds just another layer of complexity to the workflow.

FCP Studio 2
Dual 3Gg Quad Core
5Gg RAM
KONA 2
OS 10.4.11

[Gary Adcock]

[Fred Miller] “But in reality it’s “wrapped a in 29.97 container.” What a confusing pain in the… I still don’t get it. No matter how many times I read it. And it adds just another layer of complexity to the workflow.”

Thats because it is based on a film frame rate and workflow that is squeezed into a video pipeline.

Pulldown was created to make the old work within the new by adding frames to complete the total volume of images to finish filling the “video pipeline”

You do know that 24p is played back as 48i in 1080 right? It does this to ease the strain your eyes since you are used to looking at 60i ( 29.97 frames is 59.94 fields – and called 60i)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD

[Fred Miller]

When I go to a movie theatre, is it not projected 24p? My eyes seem to have no problem there.

If what you said is true, then why shoot at 24p? If you are going for aesthetics, wouldn’t you want to stay true to the frame rate?

Don’t get me wrong, I prefer the smooth motion of 29.97 over 23.98.

Recently we’ve been trying to move to a true 24p workflow (we’ve been shooting at 24p and adding pulldown upon ingest for quite sometime.) But now that we are completely capable of shooting, editing, and mastering at 24p it seems logical to just do everything 24p. Our monitors accept a 23.98 signal. We’ve done a couple projects this way. The biggest hurdles we had were when HDV shot by a third party suddenly had to be incorporated into our workflow. We thought it would be easy becuase it too was shot at 24p. But that was when we discovered the whole (29.97 wrapper thing)

My background is strictly video, so when I started working for a company that shoots primarily HDCAM at 24p and edits and masters at 29.97. My theory has always been, “if you’re doing video, stick to a video format and workflow.” I asked everybody why this workflow was adopted when it seems to cause more problems than solutions. Now after a couple 24p projects, I’m not sure if anything was gained by doing it that way, because we can’t control what we’re sourcing 100%. For reasons beyond my control we cannot shoot at 29.97.

So when you say 1080 is ALWAYS monitored at 48fps I wonder in what context you mean. Are you saying that video shot at 24p what never MEANT to be viewed at 24p? I’m not being snippy, just trying to figure out if maybe I’ve led my whole team astray down workflow that will never work.

Sorry this has become totally off topic of the thread.

FCP Studio 2
Dual 3Gg Quad Core
5Gg RAM
KONA 2
OS 10.4.11

[Gary Adcock]

[Fred Miller] “When I go to a movie theatre, is it not projected 24p? My eyes seem to have no problem there. “

Sorry but no, its not – projection is at 48 fps using a double opening shutter hence 24p is shown as 48i

“Don’t get me wrong, I prefer the smooth motion of 29.97 over 23.98. “

Then 24p is not for you. Don’t use it, I do not work on projects that shoot a 30p – my preference, I like 24 and I “get” how pulldown works, so for me it is not an issue. Some people swear by one camera or another – frame rates are the same kind of thing.

“I started working for a company that shoots primarily HDCAM at 24p and edits and masters at 29.97”

Sorry but that is plain foolishness. you should master at what it was shot at -then change the frame rate for delivery – even if it is only being shown in SD, you have much better results mastering at the original camera frame rates. Delivery is something completely different.

“So when you say 1080 is ALWAYS monitored at 48fps I wonder in what context you mean. Are you saying that video shot at 24p what never MEANT to be viewed at 24p”

I said exactly what I meant-
you are NOT looking at 24fps at any time in the process you are looking at 48i- while the NLE can handle the material as P the playback on your monitor is always PsF.

The specs for HDCam capture and playback are called PsF by SMPTE -and if you are recording on tape in a 1080 camera you are NOT capturing a Truly progressive image- you have to record into an external capture device that can handle the content as P – Rave HD, S.Two, Codex recorders can all do this, your tape cannot.

– I have beat this horse for awhile now, I have been told that there are something in the area of 42 posts of mine on this subject. just do a search.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD

[Fred Miller]

Thanks for the info.

The fog is starting to lift…somewhat.

One last question. I have done much searching through the cow to find out what the best way is to deal with HDV (specifically P2 shot at 24PN) on a 23.97 timeline. Everything that I’ve read says that it should be fine. But even after I conform the footage with cinema tools, it still looks jittery compared to the CineAlta footage I have to mix it with. Any thoughts?

FCP Studio 2
Dual 3Gg Quad Core
5Gg RAM
KONA 2
OS 10.4.11

[Gary Adcock]

[Fred Miller] “hat the best way is to deal with HDV (specifically P2 shot at 24PN) on a 23.97 timeline.”

First
P2 is NOT and never has been HDV.

Second
if it was shot 23.98 it should play directly in a 23.98 timeline. What was CT used for?

a CT Conform does NOT change the content only the header on the file.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD

[Fred Miller]

Sorry for the HDV-P2 gaff.

When we brought the P2 files into FCP using the log and transfer tool – it was automatically made into 29.97 no matter what we tried. Upon searching the cow, I saw that some were suggesting using CT to conform P2 footage to 23.98. (Without the conform – the video was even more jittery)

I know the raw P2 clips are 23.98 – because the log and transfer tool reads them as “23.98pn” Is there a better (right) way to get these files (which we received on a hard drive) into FCP without using the log and transfer tool?

FCP Studio 2
Dual 3Gg Quad Core
5Gg RAM
KONA 2
OS 10.4.11

[Fred Miller]

Gary,
Thanks again for all the advice. Please disregard my last response pertaining to the jitteryness of the 23.98 P2 footage. I have resolved the problem and it was as I suspected a “pilot” error.
😉

FCP Studio 2
Dual 3Gg Quad Core
5Gg RAM
KONA 2
OS 10.4.11

[Gary Adcock]

[Fred Miller] “Thanks again for all the advice. “

You are welcome Fred.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD