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Can someone explain the 960×720 DVCPRO HD thing to me?
So FCP has a Sequence Preset called “DVCPRO HD – 720p24” that shows up with a frame size of 960×720 (preset called “HD (960×720) (16:9)”) and a Pixel Aspect Ratio of “HD (960×720).” The Anamorphic box is NOT checked, even though this is technically an anamorphic squeeze, since the effect of the above pixel aspect ratio on the above frame size yields a 1280×720 canvas. That much is clear to me.
But when I drop 1280×720 images into that sequence, it doesn’t require any rendering. Great. But when I output that same sequence as a QT movie, it too is 1280×720. So where does the 960 come into play?
Any help, or links to places that explain this, would be greatly appreciated.
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Bill Gilman
bi********@***oo.com -
12 Replies
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It’s a kludge that Panasonic built into their cameras to reduce the bandwidth. It’s not anamorphic in the strict sense because the material is not being squeezed. Panasonic has some euphemism for it, but basically it doesn’t effect the output in anyway. When you record back to DVCPRO HD the material is processed down to this size for recording.
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[Bill Gilman] “So FCP has a Sequence Preset called “DVCPRO HD – 720p24” that shows up with a frame size of 960×720 (preset called “HD (960×720) (16:9)”) and a Pixel Aspect Ratio of “HD (960×720).””
That’s actually how DVCPro HD is recorded and that’s the frame size you should be working in. FCP automatically ‘stretches’ the image back out to 1280 for playback. Anything created in true 1280×720 will need to be rendered.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.comNow in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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[Walter Biscardi, Jr.] “That’s actually how DVCPro HD is recorded and that’s the frame size you should be working in. FCP automatically ‘stretches’ the image back out to 1280 for playback. Anything created in true 1280×720 will need to be rendered.”
Well, now, that’s the funny thing, Walter. I would have thought the same thing. However, when I did so, as I mentioned above, it did not need to be rendered. Plus, wouldn’t QT player, even if it has a flag for knowing that the footage need be displayed at 1280×720, at least indicate in Movie Info that the actual size of the clip is 960×720? It does not.
I don’t want to get in a big fracas over this point or any other, because all of us have lots of experience here. I just feel that this has to be one of the most under- or undocumented components of FCP, even after FCP 4.5 was called FCP HD and they built the whole marketing campaign around it. I’ve looked on kenstone.net and other logical places to look. It just all leaves me with more questions.
Also, another important piece of info is that I’m going from Cineon scans (2048×1556, center cropped and resized to 1280×720 movies for use in FCP). Now, obviously, I’m starting with movies that are 1280×720 and not 960×720, but still, FCP doesn’t flinch or need to rerender when I drop them in the timeline. I know, it doesn’t make sense to me either.
I just want to know, before I get too far down this path, if I’m doing it right, or if something’s going to bite me in the rear when I get to the end and have to rerun 17000+ frames. It seems like DVCPRO HD is a great opportunity for affordable (read: no need for Kona + SATA) finishing of HD or film material. I can’t be the first one to try doing this, can I?
Looking forward to all of your replies, CC community…
Bill
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Bill Gilman
billgilman@yahoo.com -
Quicktime often tells lies….
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP
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[Tom Wolsky] “t’s a kludge that Panasonic built into their cameras to reduce the bandwidth. It’s not anamorphic in the strict sense because the material is not being squeezed. Panasonic has some euphemism for it, but basically it doesn’t effect the output in anyway. When you record back to DVCPRO HD the material is processed down to this size for recording.”
Tom this is totally incorrect ( except for the re-recording comment)
sorry, this is not a Panasonic “kluge” —all of the HD formats do this “digital anamorphic squeeze”
so that it can have the ability to have the “raw” HD data stream @ 1.5 gbps , crushed onto a 9mm track on tape. Panny’s 720p native capture size as recorded to tape is 960×780, 1080 uses 1440×1080 and an HDV variant at 1280×1080. So calling it a Panasonic kluge is ignoring the facts that all of the HD formats do this so that you can get the most amount of data on the tape. Only the HDV 720 is the only HD format that does not do this.As for affecting output anything that changes the aspect ratio of your content can affect it’s outcome.
do a horizontal blur on text in any of the DV100 versions ( remember that is usable in 720 and 1080) of HD and see what happens.gary adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation -
[Bill Gilman] “It seems like DVCPRO HD is a great opportunity for affordable (read: no need for Kona + SATA) finishing of HD or film material. I can’t be the first one to try doing this, can I?”
No you are not the first,
Don’t shoot yourself in the foot, HD monitoring over FW is not accurate and the 1200a deck occasionally will post black frames to the video display that do not always show on the tape.
and you would rather keep a $30K deck attached to your workstation to monitor rather than using a $2500 Kona2 Card?How are you going to store and access all of that content when you realize that every 100ft of film is equal to 1 gig of data @ 720p24
gary adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation -
Ah, but you type to fast Gary….
DVCproHD 1080i is 1280×1080, not 1440×1080.
HDCAM is 1440×1080, as is HDV.HDCAM SR records full 1920×1080, but is very unaffordable 🙁 D5 also records full 1920×1080.
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP
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[Graeme Nattress] “Ah, but you type to fast Gary….
DVCproHD 1080i is 1280×1080, not 1440×1080. HDCAM is 1440×1080, as is HDV.”How true Graeme, I was rushing to catch a plane to LA.
Thank you for the correct numbers.gary adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation -
Just to nitpick…
1080i/60 DVCPROHD is 1280×1080, but 1080i/50 is 1440×1080. Interestingly in FCP5 DVCPROHD/50 codec is implemented, so you can do 1080P/24 with the 50Hz codec instead of the 60Hz one and get less subsampling, for those of you offlining in this format.
I’m tired… does this post make any sense?
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Jesse Rosen
Director of Technical Development
Abel Cine Tech, Inc. -
The reason that QT Player doesn’t show the QT as 960×720 is almost certainly that the file’s Current SIze is set to 1280×720. Basically QT movies have an Actual Size (960×720 in this case) and a Current Size which is saved as part of the file. FCP would ignore the Current Size and just use the Actual Size whereas apps llike QT Player and After Effects DO use it, hence why DVCPROHD will confusingly look like “true square pixel media”. Current Size is simply a “live resize” upon playback and if you open up a movie’s properties in QTP and select the Video Track you can get the Actual and Current Size values.
The only reason they don’t use the anamorphic term is that people associate it with SD and it would spoil the marketing :-)Whichever way you look at it, these major HD formats are all anamorphic with a custom pixel aspect ratio.
Martin
Digital Heaven, London UK
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