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BrickSculpting and Classical Conditioning.
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[David Lawrence] “I find this is a great way to work when I don’t have time to log.”
There’s another interesting way of looking at this whole question.
A timeline is simply another kind of container but with its own uniquely useful properties.
If you can put assets into a bin or an event or a keyword collection, you can also put them into a timeline. You’re just using a different type of container but you’re not doing anything essentially different.
To approach timelines as somehow fundamentally distinct from other types of organisational containers is not only to make a category error, but also to miss out on the opportunities that they afford when viewed as containers.
The uniquely useful property of timelines as against other types of container is that they allow you to manipulate your assets in time and in context.
I think that some people only ever see the timeline as a place for putting together their final edit, but once you recognise it’s just another container like any other, you can start to free up the way you work.
Of course, I’m not saying that you have to!
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Tony West] “I’m trying to imagine someone cutting the highlights of the baseball game and they drop the entire 3 hour game in the timeline.”
I am trying to imagine that as well. What would be the point?
[Tony West] “Knowing that the foul tips and guys stepping out of the box and back in the box and adjusting their batting gloves aren’t going to stay anyway.”
Those unusable parts would not need to be on the timeline.
[Tony West] “Search up to the HR drop it down, RBI drop it down and so on works for me.”
I don’t doubt that way does work great for you. In Premiere Pro you can create a separate timeline of home runs and a separate timeline of RBIs. You could also just use markers to separate them within the same timeline. The choice would be yours. There would be no time spent on keywords but their would be organization and a sense of time. For example 2 minutes of RBI and 1 minute of home runs. Perhaps you would have clips of the sports fans doing silly stuff. I have never edit a sports highlight real so I am not going to say one paradigm is better than the other. I think FCPX is a good program but I think it would be cool to have an editing contest between the two paradigms. I think one paradigm might be better for some projects and the other paradigm might be better for other projects.
[Tony West] “They just haven’t done an effective job of selling it to me or some others”
I don’t doubt that because I think there may be merit to both editing paradigms and everyone needs to use the method that works best for their projects. As I stated having a contest between the two editing paradigms might be enlightening for everyone. I wanna be hip : )
[Tony West] “You aren’t sold on our way either so we are even.”
I don’t think anyone has to change their editing methods. I will say that I can see the roles feature of FCPX being useful but I can also see tracks being useful. I like the key-framing in Premiere Pro but I also like how Fairlight is now part of DR. Can one editing program be the best solution for every project? Probably not. Having said that I have no need to make any FCPX user switch to Premiere Pro. FCPX for $300.00 is a good deal and should work just fine.
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[greg janza] “tony, sports is the weakest possible analogy”
It’s not an “analogy” it’s a job. it’s a job that’s pretty hard to make a credible argument for using this method.
So, as it can work in some cases (like the job I’m working on now) not so in others like this one.
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[greg janza] “But hours and hours of b-roll in a random project that may have golden moments somewhere or anywhere within the footage is something completely different.”
I’ll just say that this describes MOST of my projects.
And having the database in X available to range select, tag and subsequently retrieve those golden moments – as and when they are needed – has been the single most transformative and efficient change in my workflow in the past 25 years.
FWIW.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
I just realized something. In FCP X we have the browser that has a filmstrip view and a list view. PP does not have a filmstrip view in the project pane or anywhere that I know of except if your footage is placed in a sequence. It looks like those that like the PP sequence way of editing are trying to emulate the browser filmstrip view. May be in the future PP will copy the way FCP X browser works just like they copied the way Motion and FCP X work together with PP version called the Essential Graphics Panel. Kidding aside, both methods are viable and you have to decide which one will work for you on each project.
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I do the “combo-platter”. I log, grade (as in favorite, keyword, etc) all footage before starting, then throw all the favorites on the timeline and start “sculpting” from there. By going though the footage first, I start putting the story together in my head before any edits are done. I also might find that one clip that screams to be the first or final shot in the program. Or a look, or a laugh…I would rather find it then, than waiting to discover it on a long timeline.
I teach my students this way: get to know your material by logging and grading, then get something on the timeline and start working with it. The inspiration comes from the work, not sitting there staring at an empty timeline waiting for some great idea to pop into your head. Work the “clay” and see what shape it forms….but get to know your clay first! Its really fun to find a story in the material that the client never knew they even had in the can.
Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter -
[Bill Davis] “A regular behavior – ideally linked with a conditioned mental response.”
and positive reinforcement.
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Bill was bringing up the cognitivist’s point of learning knowledge v. acquiring knowledge. This dialectic does not require behaviorism
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Finally, we are getting to it. Does techne cause episteme? That is, if we change our editing platform does our knowledge (and not just knowledge of editing) change also. If so, what medium would demonstrate that relationship between and among episteme and techne? We can be sure a long post about how you feel during your edit is not a very good demonstration. We should look to the work itself. We should make a spreadsheet (csv): work, platform, editor. Alas, that won’t work, because what we really need is a time machine. We need editor A to make work A in platform A, and do all the measuring we can. Then, we jump in the machine (wipe all causation between techne and episteme) and have Editor A make Work A in platform B. Our little forum of rascals could then debate whether the experiment itself suffers from the same dilemma. Did the techne of the experiment cause the episteme? Alas, it is turtles all the way down.
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[Scott Witthaus] ” I also might find that one clip that screams to be the first or final shot in the program. Or a look, or a laugh…I would rather find it then, than waiting to discover it on a long timeline.”
I think there is definitely some confusion. No one just drops everything in the timeline. It is viewed first and placed where it needs to be. There is organization on the timeline. If you notice something funny or unusual you can simply add a marker to it. The markers metadata is searchable. You always have the Master Sequence or Master Rough Cut to see what you have used or if you want to replace something. You may have the Master Sequence (all usable video) then Edit 1, Edit 2 edit 3. Don’t get me wrong I am not saying keywords and smart collections are not a good way to organize the media. I think it can be useful.
[Scott Witthaus] “I do the “combo-platter”. I log, grade (as in favorite, keyword, etc) all footage before starting, then throw all the favorites on the timeline and start “sculpting” from there.”
Why would you grade all the footage if some of it might not make it to the final edit?
[Scott Witthaus] “I teach my students this way: get to know your material by logging and grading, then get something on the timeline and start working with it.”
Shouldn’t you show them your method but at the same time let them know there might be a more efficient way of working? I say that because Avid, FCPX, DR and Premiere Pro will all get better and we may all have a paradigm shift in another two years from now regardless of which NLE we use. Having said that I am not going to color grade every clip first.
[Scott Witthaus] “The inspiration comes from the work, not sitting there staring at an empty timeline waiting for some great idea to pop into your head”
I don’t know of any editor that would simply stare at a timeline. I think we all agree the footage must be viewed and some form of organization has to be done. I don’t agree that grading has to be done upfront. I think an editing contest would help to find out what techniques and methods actually work best. Remember many people thought Chinese Kong-Fu was the best form of martial arts until the UFC proved that to be false. Some thought Aikido was the best form of martial arts but the UFC proved that wrong as well.
Once again I think FCPX is a good program but I think even people using FCPX will have a different method to their madness. Perhaps if you and I had an editing contest I would adopt your method of color grading all footage first but I would have to have proof that it is more efficient before adopting a new technique or method.
The UFC = Ultimate Fighting Championship
The UEC = Ultimate Editing Championship
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