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BrickSculpting and Classical Conditioning.
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[Simon Ubsdell] “Similarly make sure to place the key moments of your visuals on the beats. Not only does this create a really satisfying flow, it also contributes to the drama, the emotion, the comedy, or whatever it is you are trying to convey. Imagine you’re making a music video here – make the visuals harmonise with the music and everything will work so much better.
It takes a lot of practice to make this work well but the difference between a spot that’s been cut around the music and one where the music has been laid in as an afterthought is like night and day.”
Agreed 100% That’s exactly how I approach it
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Eric,
It’s a good question, because it’s specific.
In a way, I think there’s two questions in there – the first is what is the better way to approach an edit, the second is how do you deal with conflicting approaches in the edit room.
I’d suggest the most fruitful thing in terms of your teaching context would be to try to articulate for your student the strengths of each approach.
Think of all the things that your editor colleagues have said about why they prefer to “ignore the music bed until the end”. Or ask here (as you’ve done) for why people like to work this way.
Then also think of why you might personally prefer editing to the music from the start.
If you can articulate the strengths and reasons of each approach to your students then you’ve not only taught them something specific, but maybe opened their minds to thinking about and trying different approaches. What about an assignment where half the class does it one way and half the other – as a means of sparking a post-screening discussion?
Personally, I would approach this problem (a commercial spot with music) using a kind of hybrid approach.
I’d work with the material without the music to come up with draft assembly that’s probably too long with too many ideas. This kind of exploration makes clear to me what material is strong (and weak), what internal rhythms I might rely on (juxtapositions and visual harmonies), and generally afford me a real knowledge of the material (which takes I preferred and why, etc.).
Once I have that, I’d look to the music on it’s own and come up with a first draft music only cut that works to time. Again, this allows me a strong knowledge of what I like or don’t like about the piece and what might be possible to change in future iterations.
With these two elements each loosely structured (and rattlling around in my head) I’d set to work putting them together. At that point, it might be said that I’m “cutting to music” though I hope you can see that it’s actually more complex than that. The previous work makes this stage easier in the sense that I can rely on my experience with the material in the earlier stages.
[Eric Santiago] “What if the client is adamant that the music should be the basis of the edits?”
This is more about the second question – how to work with people. If your collaborators (or employers) are set in their ways and demand you work a certain way then you might not have a lot of options.
However, it can be helpful to communicate to them a different approach if they have never considered it. Further, while they may know what they want, you are the expert on what you need in order to work (in terms of process), and it’s important to communicate that. There may not be a way of working together, of course, and that’s an important choice to make as well.
Hope that helps.
Franz.
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Eric,
I had a further clarifying thought on this.
Putting music to the cut at the end is essentially a traditional scoring model. If you think about it that way, you can maybe see it in a more positive light.
This scene from the Godfather is a strong, simple example (Michael pivotal moment in the restaurant) though I’m sure it’s trivial to think of your own example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9RlWShULR8
(Incidentally I like the interior car scene that precedes the restaurant as a good example of sound fx as music.)Of course, the scene is cut for drama and then score added later (famously starting only after he drops the gun). It probably isn’t as cut and dried as that (cut first, score later) because temp music plays a role in the edit. But you can see that by prioritizing things other than music (in this case, “drama”) you can get to strong piece which music then supports.
I should probably note here that I prefer not to work that way, though I have, and further that this is simply to try to clearly contrast an approach with the idea that music can play a “driving” role in an edit.
In fact, I think this is a better way of instigating my imagined student exercise – have one half of the students cut to music, the other half cut without music with instructions to “score” the piece after. This might lead to more clearly contrasted results, a better understanding of each approach, and better discussion. I like this idea so much I’m going to try to use it next teaching opportunity I have …
Franz.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “So it’s been demonstrated that at least some people who use timeline-based approaches can conceive of editing in other ways. On the other hand, there’s been real resistance to even considering timeline-based approaches from some posters who use browser-based methods. Here’s one example:
[Tony West] “The concept of dumping hours and hours of footage into the timeline that you know very little of is going to stay, is not an efficient way of going about your work.””
Oh yes, I certainly stand by that statement Franz.
I’m trying to imagine someone cutting the highlights of the baseball game and they drop the entire 3 hour game in the timeline. Knowing that the foul tips and guys stepping out of the box and back in the box and adjusting their batting gloves aren’t going to stay anyway. That works for them. Search up to the HR drop it down, RBI drop it down and so on works for me. They just haven’t done an effective job of selling it to me or some others. You aren’t sold on our way either so we are even.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “Your original post is concerned, however, that if someone achieves success editing with timeline-based approaches, then it might lead to an inability to conceive of editing any other way.”
That is NOT what I said.
I never implied any “inability to conceive.”
Thats pure spin.
What I was writing about is how it *might* lead them to view timeline based approaches (which BTW, every single NLE in existence that I’m aware of uses) as the exclusive pathway worth reliance or development.
A very different idea from what you imply above.
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[Bill Davis] ” I never implied any “inability to conceive.””
[Bill Davis] “I wonder if it’s every bit as difficult to conceive editing without calling up and addressing some type of timeline thing”
Bill,
Replace “inability to conceive” with “difficulty conceiving” in my post above if you feel that’s more accurate to your original post.
Franz.
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Great stuff Simon/Steve/Franz ☺
Thanks for that.
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[Tony West] “I’m trying to imagine someone cutting the highlights of the baseball game and they drop the entire 3 hour game in the timeline.”
tony, sports is the weakest possible analogy since for the most part, sports highlights are pretty obvious and easy to put together. But hours and hours of b-roll in a random project that may have golden moments somewhere or anywhere within the footage is something completely different.
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I can see the value of throwing an interview in a time line seeing and hearing it all in context, breaing it down, cutting away the fat, the tangents etc and using that practice as a way to develop a sense of context of the whole interview. That’s not how I do things now, but I might use this some time in the future
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[Mark Smith] “I can see the value of throwing an interview in a time line seeing and hearing it all in context, breaing it down, cutting away the fat, the tangents etc and using that practice as a way to develop a sense of context of the whole interview.”
I find this is a great way to work when I don’t have time to log. It’s especially effective with pancake timelines.
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