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Art doesn’t pay
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[Bill Davis] “Uh, ALL schools teach video by doing now. All of them.”
Actually, if we are talking about film majors in college, that’s not true. Some teach writing and acting and conceptual things. Others have actual, real-world hardware and teach production and post as if they were out in the market. Some prepare you for ‘above the line’ roles and others focus on ‘below the line’. I know this for a fact, as I have taught as a guest instructor at and consult with several of them.
One of these has a co-op technology program where a real producer can pitch his/her film to the program and have the students involved in the production. The crews are typically 1/3 professionals (who act as mentors and department heads and keys) and about 2/3 students. These films have gone on into mainstream distribution including theatrical, HBO, etc. That’s a lot different than how most film schools operate.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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It was the greatest film school. After graduating college, Jo Dante told me to go there because he started there. I did and started as an apprentice editor syncing 35mm dailies on a sync block and then taking the 10,000 feet reel of film and the 10,000 feet reel of mag stock and putting it on a edge number machine. Those were the days.
But if you stuck it out you got to do and try things like shoot and direct second unit.
Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905email: info@babyboompictures.com
website: https://www.BabyBoomPictures.com
Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/babyboompicturesFor Camera Accessories – Monitors and Batteries
website: https://www.EigRig.com -
[Oliver Peters] “Actually, if we are talking about film majors in college, that’s not true. “
The wires might be getting crossed about a difference between hands-on classroom instruction (which is what it sounds like Bill is talking about) vs pseudo-vocational situations (which is what it sounds like in your example). Certainly in the past there were schools that couldn’t afford Avids or 35mm cameras or moviolas so the teaching was mainly theoretical with SVHS cameras and linear, deck-to-deck editing standing in for the ‘real stuff’. In the past 15-20yrs the cost of gear has come down so much I think every program (especially at the college level) can be more hands-on in the way that Bill is describing.
When talking to students I always stress the importance of finding a post/production place locally and trying to work part time, intern, etc.,. so they can get a feel for how real world production work is done as it’s going to be much different than what they experience in a classroom environment. Which I think is fine. IMO college should be primarily about exposure to new people/experiences/ideas, learning how to think critically, and acquiring job-agnostic skills that will serve you the rest of your life regardless of the job(s) you end up having.
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OH – I just have to jump back into this conversation.
Your kid in in High School. He wants to be a film maker, or do something in this business (perhaps editor or graphics). Here are your instructions –
instead of spending $39,000 for that first year in school –
1) buy him or her a nice loaded iMac – you don’t need to spend more than $3000 for it
2) have him or her take this course – https://www.xintwo.com/. The guy that teaches it, is an FCP X expert, and in his words –
“XinTwo is a special series of Final Cut Pro X learning modules offering the maximum learning experience in the least amount of time.
XinTwo is designed to help both beginners and experienced editors to gain a deeper understanding of Final Cut Pro X. We guarantee you’ll become more proficient with the app.”3) get them an Adobe subscription as well (even if you can’t get the student rate, it’s $49 a month)
4) get them a cheap car, so they can practice during the day, and go have some fun on weekends.
5) by the time they are 20, send them out for LA, and pay their rent for a year, so they can get an internship with their knowledge of FCP X and Adobe (and perhaps any other subject they are interested like Pro Tools, AVID, etc.).
and if they are interested in shooting – get them a Canon 5D or Red Raven – because $15,000 is cheaper than $39,000 for that first year of film school.And GUESS WHAT – after the first year, they will not only know than 75% of the people they are working with (they DID take the XinTwo course) – they will JUMP ahead, and they will be an in demand person that (because they are only 21 or 22 years old now) – they will be willing to work for much cheaper than a 40 year old with 15 years experience and a new baby at home. And THEY WILL SUCCEED. I am a huge fan of direct learning courses like Bill (and others) offer. All substance, no “bull#$%^”, at a fraction of the cost, in a fraction of the time.
Just my opinion. And I only said positive things about Bill Davis in this post – and it’s all true.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Direct learning vs education courses for film making is a fascinating debate. I can’t help feeling that the chance of success for anyone is based on initiative, talent, resilience and a huge amount of good fortune.
Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk -
[Jeremy Garchow] “Survival is certainly encoded and theoretically, any ape (or male ape) can challenge any other male ape for control.
Humans often equate our behaviour with apes that we are not as closely related to. Bonobos are our closest DNA relatives and they do not live in an alpha male harem society at all. Their hierarchy is intensely social, matriarchal, poly sexual. The fact that we look for alpha male hierarchy in the mammal world is to justify our modern social construction so in that sense Harari is correct. We have invented social structures that have a basis in our DNA but have been mythologised and modified to justify.
I am merely pointing out that both the instincts that we warp and the brain that does it is a result of inherited DNA over which we overlay social mythos. As for human success, I am always quoting Stephen Jay Gould who, as a paleontologist, took the longer view of humans as a species when he declared that looking at millions of years of evolution, “Intelligence is always a backwater”.
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The Art Doesn’t Pay is an incredible reel. I have read all the arguments in this thread about film school, formal training, learning on the set. I went the formal route, through grad school in Physics at Stanford and then a career in Accelerator Physics. That is essential in a field like physics. Late in life I became interested in film and video. Just Youtube Channel stuff, but as I phased out of physics, I looked for a way to improve my production values. I took a number of courses in video, lighting, documentary at our local Community College, Berkeley City College. I was always the oldest in the class. The teachers work in the industry not necessarily feature films, but Reality TV, Documentary, Corporate, etc. The tuition for a course is not in the thousands, typically it is about $150, per course. The learning is hands on and can provide a solid background for someone with the artistic talent, drive and entreprenurial spirit to succeed. One thing the teachers there stress, is it is not about a degree in film making, it is who your work with, how hard and well you work and how challenging a profession it is.
So if my kid wanted to work in the industry, rather than spend $40 k on film school (exception for AFI), I would suggest the above approach and maybe buy him a fancy camera with the money saved. It is a risky business for sure.
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[Tom Sefton] “Direct learning vs education courses for film making is a fascinating debate. I can’t help feeling that the chance of success for anyone is based on initiative, talent, resilience and a huge amount of good fortune.”
At least for success in a large, saturated market like LA or NY I’d say resilience and good luck are the two most important factors. Now, taking initiative, having talent, being experienced, building a network, etc., can certainly increase your odds, but it’s still a crap shoot. I’ve gotten jobs because I was the first one to pickup the phone and I’ve missed jobs because I wasn’t the first on to pickup the phone.
I know a lot of very talented people (filmmakers, editors, musicians, etc.,) that have never made it big because the cookie never crumbled their way or they got burned out on the grind and went in a different direction. It certainly reminds me of the old bear in the woods joke; Alan and Stan are camping in the woods when a bear walks into their campsite.
Alan: *starts lacing up his shoes*
Stan: “What are you doing? You can’t out run a bear!”
Alan: “I don’t have to outrun the bear, I just have to out run you!”
Stan: “Good point.” *goes all Tonya Harding on Alan’s knee with a trekking pole and takes off running* -
There’s a perfect anecdote to this inside Peter Biskind’s fantastic book – “Down and Dirty Pictures”, which looks at the history of Miramax and the independent film movement of the 80s to early 00s. Tarantino worked in a video rental store and loved it, but realised that he had to move on to follow his dream; running with the fast class and coming last was better than running in the slow class and feeling like you were winning.
Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk -
[Bob Zelin] “Just my opinion. And I only said positive things about Bill Davis in this post – and it’s all true. “
Gosh thanks.
Sadly, there was a part of XinTwo I was very wrong about. I assumed focusing on being concise would be enough of a market dfferentiator – and failed to notice a larger tsunami headed my way … the incredible rise of every human with a YouTube account deciding it would be cool to crank out their own software operation training modules.
A few hundred competitors working in the same space is fine. I just didn’t expect a few hundred thousand!
Need to learn something about X? While the first dozen YouTube videos on that precise topic might be dreck, probably one of the next dozen (or thousand) will be OK.
Anyone paying will find Ripple Training (Which I highly recommend) or Lynda.com (available for free at your local library.) perfectly fine for traditional learners.
I’m pursuing a new and different strategy more tuned to teaching a part of the gestalt of X that’s not typically addressed by any of these other courses.
It’s slow going, but wish me luck.
The market has spoken. Be Agile, or don’t play!
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.
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