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Apple engineers versus an editor’s ability to set persistent in to out points in their footage.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I guess since this is the way that FCPX works, I literally hit i,o,f when setting ins and outs in the Event. “
I remember 9 out of 10 times. That 1 in 10 frustrates me. I like the way FCPX works compared to other NLEs but that’s mostly because it does what I want without much effort on my part . . . until I want to expend the effort. This is the one thing that keeps burning me often enough to slow me down. I don’t expect them to do what I think is a radical change in the function. I like Favorites. I’d wish they would be created automatically when I move off a clip so there’s one less thing I have to think about when my creative editing brain is in that mode. I want FCPX to be less keystrokes and in most cases it is. This is one of those exceptions.
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Hey Jeremy
When you review your favourite, are you able to refine it easily… does I, O, F still work on (within) an extant favourite?
Cheers
Andy -
[Andy Mees] “Hey Jeremy
When you review your favourite, are you able to refine it easily… does I, O, F still work on (within) an extant favourite?
Cheers
Andy
“For me, it depends.
Sometimes I keep the favorite forever and simply refine it in the timeline, and this usually is dialog. I keep the overall general line marked as a favorite, and do the editing in the Project.
If it’s a line or take that I know I will use or come back to later, or if it was a particularly good line/take, I usually end up keeping it. For a long time.
If I’m timing out broll, where the cut is more precise, or the clip is more transitory and not as fixed as dialog, I’ll clear the favorites.
I use the favorites temporarily and permanently. It seems the permanent ones usually tend to be dialog based clips. I rarely use keywords on a range, I use favorites instead.
But there’s no hard and fast rules, it just the way I seem to use it.
I rather like the Event system. I found favorites rather organic since I use FCP7’s extended markers as more permanent flags in my projects.
With broll/cut aways though, since those are constantly changing, the timing constantly moving around in the earlier stages of the sdit, I clear the favorite much more often.
If you have a favorite already set, you can’t set another favorite on top of it, i.e. favorites don’t overlap. Keyword ranges can, though.
Jeremy
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[Craig Seeman] “I remember 9 out of 10 times. That 1 in 10 frustrates me.”
I hear that.
I’d much rather have audio editing/channel manipulation improved.
Talk about frustrating…
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[Simon Ubsdell] “The non-persistence of Ins and Outs in the Timeline is perhaps a bigger issue altogether than the fact that they won’t stick in the Browser. In fact, it’s a massively annoying issue in the Tinmeline – and no amount of “favoriting” is going to sort that out.”
The timeline is a whole different story. I hope Apple puts some effort in to it as I think it needs the most help from a usability stand point.
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Woops. I failed again.
Sorry, wrong thread.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Well, if I’m not on a shoot, I’d say 85-90% with the other 10% finishing.
I edit a lot. Why? Because I like FCPX and can relate its methods, I’m not a creative editor? “
No no, just curious. We all multitask so I’m just curious about where you’re coming from. Like when we had that conversation about DAWs and when you told me you didn’t used DAWs professionally, a lightbulb went off for me as to why we were seeing the need for tracks so differently. Just wondering if something like that might be happing again.
[Jeremy Garchow] “But today, right now, of you want persistent (and truly persistent, not sort of persistent) ins an outs, there is a usable method employed in X. When you say it’s not possible, I call that bluff becuase it is possible.”
Nobody’s bluffing. I really think we’re talking about two entirely different things. Simon nailed it in this post. This quote is especially relevant:
[Simon Ubsdell] “I am afraid that the apologists who will tell you that Favorites take care of the lack of persistent In AND Out haven’t thought about those editors who only want one of those and don’t want to have to be bothered about both.
If I have to use Favorites (when I don’t care where either my In or my Out is respectively) I will have “favorited” the entire clip either from the In point to the end of the clip or from the Out point to the start of the clip respectively.
That’s why it’s not good enough. Yes, if you always needed to set BOTH In AND Out then favoriting solves the issue (if you like that kind of thing). But for editors like me it really doesn’t work at all.”
Maybe language is getting in the way here. We’re using the same terms to discuss about two conceptually different things.
A range has a persistent start and end.
A range must have both a start and end.
A favorite is a persistant range.
This isn’t the same as a marked in and/or out.
In and/or outs mark the cut point.
In and/or out marks can be used together or separately (you can have an In without an Out and visa versa).
In and/or out marks only define a range when used together.
[Simon Ubsdell] “You aren’t really setting Ins and Outs in any traditional sense – you’re just substituting a keyboard manoeuvre for a mouse action defining a range in the iMovie sense. It’s equally obvious why the “undefined” range point will default to either the end of the clip or the start. “
Bingo. Apple’s UI designers are trying to map familiar terms and key bindings onto a different function. The fact the menu commands for I and O are “Set Selection Start” and “Set Selection End” means even Apple realizes this is different functionality. Otherwise, they could have called it “Mark In” and Mark Out”. Or perhaps they should have used the S and E keys. The name change is intentional. The problem is they’re conflating related functions that have different behaviors and usages.
In summary:
Start and End always define range and must be used together.
In/Out defines the cut. They can be used together or separately. When used together, they define range implicitly, but range is often not the focus.
Apples and oranges.
I think favorites are powerful, useful and really great, but they’re not a substitute for what we’re asking for with persistent in/out marks. I won’t be surprised when Apple adds this back just like they’ve announced a future source monitor. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
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[Thomas Frank] “FCPX
Mark your In and Out throw that guy in your timeline adjust the Ins and Outs from the same clip add it in your timeline.
Select the clip on your timeline and hit shift F you will get your In and Outs in the Event library.
Not sure what the issue is?”That’s what I was going to say.
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Yeah, I edit. I’m in the chair. I use NLEs to create content from scratch all day every day. I also wear other hats becuase we are small, so we all have to. I see why you asked now.
First, I have to apologize for my perpetual badly written language and typos. The cow, the iPhone and long posts is not an easy editing task.
But I am not an Apple apologist (that’s to you, Simon). 😉 They need to fix things.
Here’s how I see it and stop me if this has been said before.
I understand the distinctions you and others are making between a range ins/outs, similar to what we talked about with tracks vs roles in that earlier conversation you mentioned. The problem there is that Roles do not eclipse track functionality and usefulness in FCPX today. Multitrack audio handling is not as convenient in FCPX as its a bit jumbled. This is not to say that it won’t get better. I think that with some serious tooling, audio Roles and their functions will be a legitimate track alternative. But, it’s speculation and only my opinion. And Apple needs to take this very seriously.
The distinction we are making here between io/range is much more subtle.
Yes, when you set an out, an in is already set and vice versa. But…
You can still perform three point edits and backtimed three point edits in X.
You can mark a start and an end and have that selected material moved to the primary in a variety of ways.
It falls apart when needing to add to secondaries though. If the range also acted as a target system (like track patching) it would work a bit better. But keeping this as a comparison…
Where they differ is in the operation. In fcp7, the selected in/out or both remain on the clip without user interaction.
On FCPX, they will not remain unless there is user interaction (favorite). It’s a big difference, but all the same functions are there.
If you need to mark one spot in the clip, you can use a marker to come back to later. I do this in fcp7 constantly as I change the ins and outs constantly. It’s also why I use extended markers. They show up in the viewer, the bin, the timeline.
I guess it’s all on how you use it, and obviously everyone has their own methods, but FCPX uses ranges as very temporary markers, but there are a number of really useful systems in place to keep your thoughts together.
I also approach this from what you can do and what you can’t do.
When you say there aren’t persistent in and out markers, I say that’s not exactly true. There are and they easier to use and recall than in 7.
They might not look like in and outs of yore, but they are similar in function.
Perhaps Apple will add the more traditional in/out functions back in, but on the event side, there’s not much that you can’t do with ranges.
The timeline side, as has been mentioned, needs a few more tweaks.
This thread started about ins/outs remaining on browsed clips and how the database is so beyond repair that they aren’t even possible. I believe that’s a bit of an embellishment. There’s plenty not to like and disagree with in X, but even though it requires a keystroke, “persistent ins and outs” do exist.
Jeremy
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[Bill Davis]
“I was happy the way things were and I don’t like change.”
Verses
“I’m willing to alter my expectations in order to approach traditional processes in new ways.”
Both defensible positions. Neither “wrong.””
Bill,
I have to say you continue to astound me.
I’m constantly flabbergasted that you can read these forums and only see two perspectives represented.
Franz.
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