Apple and databases

[David Lawrence]

Yikes! Sounds like a complete clusterf&$k.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl

[Chris Kenny]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “Interesting article on how hilariously incompetent Apple are at managing databases.”

The article isn’t about databases per se, it’s about iCloud’s ability to transparently sync object graphs between multiple instances of an application across devices. Providing this as a generalizable system-level service is new, ambitious, and it’s honestly not surprising that it’s taking some time to work out the bugs.

[Aindreas Gallagher] “The company has simply not expressed any desire to fix Core Data syncing.”

The article that contains this quote also notes that many bugs have been fixed. I guess they magically fix themselves with no work on Apple’s part?

Core Data syncing is quite important to the multi-device computing model that seems to represent Apple’s vision of the future. The idea that Apple intends to neglect is is not especially credible.

[Aindreas Gallagher] “Oh it does? it’s all based around core data? “

You’re mixing up Core Data, which has been around for eight years now and is quite solid, with Core Data syncing, which is only about 18 months old and still has some bugs to be worked out. FCP X does not presently use any of Core Data’s syncing features, although it’s possible they could, in the future, form the basis for collaborative editing capabilities.

Nice try with the FUD, though.

—
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.

[Franz Bieberkopf]

Aindreas,

Andrew Richards was talking about the database foundations of FCPX a while back. It would be interesting to hear if he has a perspective on this.

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/43894

Franz.

[Aindreas Gallagher]

I get you on the specifics of the core syncing thing – but you’re skirting around the fact that there are four guys in total working on advancing and bug fixing core data full stop nevermind the syncing issue. That was one of the specific points the developers made – that they view it as a resource/does apple really care/ issue, given that there are just four guys representing the entire company effort on core data.

I can’t remember where we heard that kind of thing before.

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[Aindreas Gallagher]

I remember that one –

There is no inherent superiority in FCPX due to its use of Core Data, and indeed I think it contributes to a lot of the sluggishness observed when a project gets complex and necessarily performs a lot more I/O on its SQLite database for each new timeline input.

some of the more fervent FCPX supporters do love to wax rhapsodic about the wonders of the database…

to my mind there is serious amounts of blind magical wishful thinking involved. as ever.

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[Bill Davis]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “Interesting article on how hilariously incompetent Apple are at managing databases. FCPX doesn’t use a database does it?”

SEE!

See that mole on Cindy Crawford’s face? See it? STARE at it. It proves that she’s hidiously ugly.

That’s my opinion and I’m not going to hear anything else.

Ever.

Period.

That is all.

(except that I heard that Halle Berry once had a zit.)

digusting.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.

[Charlie Austin]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “but you’re skirting around the fact that there are four guys in total working on advancing and bug fixing core data full stop nevermind the syncing issue. That was one of the specific points the developers made – that they view it as a resource/does apple really care/ issue, given that there are just four guys representing the entire company effort on core data. “

It seems to me, in the context of that statement that those 4 guys referenced anecdotally by an unnamed developer are working on Core Data synching, not Core Data itself. In any case Core Data (not synching) has been around for quite some time and is a solid, well regarded framework. You’re grasping at straws.

————————————————————-

~”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.”~
~”The function you just attempted is not yet implemented”~

[David Lawrence]

[Charlie Austin] “In any case Core Data (not synching) has been around for quite some time and is a solid, well regarded framework. You’re grasping at straws.”

Actually there’s a bigger point in the article that I think some of you are missing

“Many veteran developers have learned their lesson and given up on iCloud’s Core Data syncing entirely. “Ultimately, when we looked at iCloud + Core Data for [our app], it was a total no-go as nothing would have worked,” said one best-selling iPhone and Mac developer. “Some issues with iCloud Core Data are theoretically unsolvable (stemming from the fact that you’ve put an object model on top of a distributed data store) and others are just plain bugs in the implementation,”

So can these issues ever be solved? “[Apple’s] approach to the problem was very novel and interesting, and perhaps they will ship a version of it that works – but it functions very differently than typical sync solutions in that there is not a central server hub that maintains the ‘truth in the cloud,’” Pierce told me. “Because of this there is a lot of fragility to the implementation, and I’m not sure it will ever scale well to larger data sets,”

What these developers are saying is that Core Data syncing is potentially unscalable and ultimately unfixable because the model itself is broken.

I would argue that this may also be true for the FCPX magnetic timeline in its current form.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl

[Charlie Austin]

[David Lawrence] “What these developers are saying is that Core Data syncing is potentially unscalable and ultimately unfixable because the model itself is broken.

I would argue that this may also be true for the FCPX magnetic timeline in its current form.”

I’m interested in how you make the connection from “Core Data syncing is potentially unscalable and ultimately unfixable” … to the magnetic timeline?

————————————————————-

~”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.”~
~”The function you just attempted is not yet implemented”~

[Aindreas Gallagher]

No – sadly wrong again there Charles 🙂 –

it clearly states: The problem is partly due to the fact that Apple only had four people leading the company’s work on Core Data as of last year, –

a lot of people were surprised at that article. Even John Gruber was caught by it. And he’s the biggest Apple booster in the business. That is a savage article about Apple’s ability to execute and their reliability, “Devastating” as Gruber put it – no matter what way you slice it that article doesn’t read well, and it features issues with manpower and competence.

Read Bieberkopf’s linked piece from Andrew. Apart from anything else, its been floating around for a bit that the fundamental database structure for X may be inherently flawed and will always degrade once the project increases in complexity.

the people grasping at straws, that they then stick in the bottle of kool aid, and drink deep, are you poor guys. 🙂

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics