Am I using the graph editor correcltly with this example?

[Angie Taylor]

Here’s a quick, rough movie of how I would create a bouncing ball animation, using the Speed graph to get fine control over the timing. This allows you to create exponential speed curves to acheive a real THUD as the ball hits the ground;

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Bouncing ball in After Effects Speed Graph from Angie Taylor on Vimeo.

cheers,

Angie Taylor | Creative Cabin Ltd | Linkedin Instructor | Adobe Community Professional

https://www.creativecabin.co.uk
https://www.lynda.com/Angie-Taylor/2131450-1.html
Twitter: theangietaylor
Linkedin: theangietaylor
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Angie-Taylor/118378194869002

[Steve Bentley]

Thanks for the movie Angie.

I guess the problem I’ve always had with the speed graph is the magnitude and impossible-to-see detail of those spikes, especially if the motion isn’t so “nine-old-men” and needs to be a graceful sweep or a complex, multi-axis roll. If you could take that graph and blow it up to building-plan-sized sheets, what would those curves look like? Is detail being lost in their compressed shapes? The shoulder and toe of the curves, that are so important in the value graph, never seem to get enough screen area in the speed graph to see what’s actually going on. I feel like the shapes of the curves have been compressed to accommodate the small graph area and when I use the handles the peaks can really get away from you.
Because the graph is showing speed (distance over time), but the graph itself is on a timeline, is that graph actually showing “acceleration”? (speed over time)

Personally I don’t see a difference in final product between the two methods – in the hands of experienced people (you can get there either way – please correct me if I’m wrong here because I’d like to know what I’m missing out on). But I do see some horrendous easing in projects using the speed graph. 9 times out of 10 when there is an easing issue, the user has gone the speed graph route. Granted this is magnified by lack of user experience and perhaps with the value graph being simpler to grasp, less experienced folk can more easily produce better work.

For me its more a visual feedback issue. I can push one of those peaks farther than you have without seeing much change in the animation, conversely I can change one of the peaks by the smallest amount and it becomes a huge change in the animation. And what’s happening in the instantaneous rise to the peak (before the gradual falloff) that doesn’t seem to anything? It always feels like I’m mousing with boxing gloves on when using the speed graph, AND I can never make the graph editor big enough to really have the control I need.
I remember when AE finally included a value graph and we left behind the timeline based speed graph that appeared between keyframes; everyone I know let out an audible, “Finally!”. To be fair, that old speed graph was made even worse by the too-narrow band of graph area in the timeline.

I find it interesting that we all started with a that timeline speed graph way back when and yet once the value graph came along, everyone (at least everyone I know) went running to the value graph instead of what they knew already. Change is hard for most folks, so why did they change? Why did they switch to something that was new to them? Why haven’t other time-based programs adopted this method (Maya, C4D, etc.)

Admittedly there is no one right way to do this and its a potato vs potata thing.

But if there is a feature of the speed graph that is not available in the value graph, I’m all ears. Or if there is a situation where you just can’t get there with the value graph, I’d like to discover that too. Where does the speed graph make more sense. Or will the answer be, “always!”

I’m not trying to be argumentative, I truly want to understand the draw of this method for you. It works for you and you speak so passionately about it, there must be something to it that I’m missing.

Regarding my past post on the subject and your questions. I was referring to layers, expressions and plug ins referencing the value coordinates only. There is only one plug in I know that references speed, everything else, including the layer’s attributes are indicated by their values and the timeline creates the temporal aspect. So when doing expressions and plugs ins etc where you have to use coordinates (and never speed) to plan your layers’ animation, why not stay in that same system when you start adjusting (OMG, I’m going to say it) their speed?
Did I just lose the argument there?????

[Roei Tzoref]

Thanks. I really don’t see how speed graph in this example is helpful to make this ball “real” or “fine”. If we are examining this as an experiment then I can appreciate how speed can maintain a motion path and just change the speed. But in real practice, I don’t see how this technique gets you anywhere closer to a realistic or fine result. It also is time consuming.

Let me make clear that I think Speed graph is a very useful tool and easy to use and It’s my main graph because I don’t deal much with bounce/overshoot. For these type of movements I would recommend using solely the value graph. As featuered in this example: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NwNnqJQPC5ZPtl6YRTwWgSGIdGirTGXw

The exceptions for using value vs speed graph other than complicated dynamics/simple ramp is if you want to manipulate the motion path in the composition window, or using path keyframes, or can’t/won’t separate dimensions. In all these cases you would have to use speed.

There’s absolutely nothing I would need more than the value graph for simulation of real physics and it’s what I teach my students for several years now when the final exercise for the graph part of the course is making “angry birds” animation ☺
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5wyUt17-tu2MTM1NzUtTHFNdEk

Roei Tzoref
2D/VFX Generalist & Instructor
♫ AeBlues Tutorials ♫
http://www.tzoref.com

[Steve Bentley]

Good point Roei,
Once you have your motion path perfect, the speed graph is a good choice for adjusting the timing. However, the speed graph is anathama for me to the degree that I will precompose the keyframes of the moving object and use time remapping (and another value graph!) to adjust the speed, keeping all the temporal resolution and the motion path intact, and with my beloved value graph.

[Angie Taylor]

Thanks for your response. I’m glad that you’ve taken the time to explore the Speed graph’s capabilities. I don’t think I’m alone in seeing the value (excuse the pun) of the speed graph. I know many other people who use it regularly.

To answer your questions quickly (I’m very tired!) There are several things that are much easier to achieve in the SG. I’m going to create a course on it actually, so I can properly demonstrate the benefits.

By the way, I love the Value graph too and am very glad to have both. I just don’t like to hear people dismiss something that I think many people could benefit from using.

I think lots of people don’t use it because they find it difficult or confusing. It does take time to get your head round but it’s worth the time investment. My advice is not to compare it to the Value Graph, these are not bezier curves. Each KF has two points, the outgoing speed and the incoming speed. The Keyframes (when fixed at a particular time) have a finite amount of time between them. When you reduce the speed at the beginning, it has to increase at the end to compensate. Time is like a piece of metal, it can be bent. But like metal, if you push the ends together too much, it will buckle. This is what happens sometimes in the Speed graph.

I Again, my advice is not to focus on the spikes, just focus on the outgoing and incoming speeds and the influence. I’ll post more later once I get some energy back 🙂

cheers,

Angie Taylor | Creative Cabin Ltd | Linkedin Instructor | Adobe Community Professional

https://www.creativecabin.co.uk
https://www.lynda.com/Angie-Taylor/2131450-1.html
Twitter: theangietaylor
Linkedin: theangietaylor
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Angie-Taylor/118378194869002

[Angie Taylor]

“Thanks. I really don’t see how speed graph in this example is helpful to make this ball “real” or “fine”.”

As I said, this is a quick, rough example

[Angie Taylor]

I am giving up on this discussion here. I’m genuinely surprised that there are not more people on this forum who can see its value. Anyway, I am going to be doing a course on the Graph Editor and I hope that some people will be open-minded enough to give it a go.

I know many other people I’ve worked with who also see the uniqueness and brilliance of the Speed graph. I know it’s not easy or intuitive to use but neither are bezier curves the first time you use them. Riding a bike is also difficult till you “get it”. I hope to convert some of you some day to Speed Graph lovers ☺

Bye for now

cheers,

Angie Taylor | Creative Cabin Ltd | Linkedin Instructor | Adobe Community Professional

https://www.creativecabin.co.uk
https://www.lynda.com/Angie-Taylor/2131450-1.html
Twitter: theangietaylor
Linkedin: theangietaylor
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Angie-Taylor/118378194869002

[Steve Davies]

Will the course be on your site, and urrrm, will it be free? :-p

Digital Designer
stevedavies.io

[Angie Taylor]

Hi there,

Yes, it will be on my https://www.creative-cabin.co.uk site. Some of it will be free but some will be for subscribers to help me fund it ☺ I’ll keep you posted.

By the way, if you have an animation that you’d like me to take a look at in terms of timing, I’d be very happy to help, just send me your project and I’ll see if I can help ☺

Cheers,

Angie

cheers,

Angie Taylor | Creative Cabin Ltd | Linkedin Instructor | Adobe Community Professional

https://www.creativecabin.co.uk
https://www.lynda.com/Angie-Taylor/2131450-1.html
Twitter: theangietaylor
Linkedin: theangietaylor
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Angie-Taylor/118378194869002

[Roei Tzoref]

Thanks for the discussion and looking forward for that course as well 🙂

Roei Tzoref
2D/VFX Generalist & Instructor
♫ AeBlues Tutorials ♫
http://www.tzoref.com