-
ALEXA vs. RED?
-
Well Said Daniel:
this info i would love to know as well.
Michael ?
HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
http://www.bistt.com -
Daniel
First of all thanks for your keen interest. The process of CMOS imaging with a Bayer mask is discussed a lot with lots of mis-information. Its important to note that a Bayer mask is just a method for color imaging from a single plane sensor and deriving color information using software formulas to decode the information into RGB colors. Each company that uses this imaging technique has their unique way of processing the information to derive what they consider the optimal image.
We do it by carefully selecting the color dyes used in the color filters in front of each pixel, along with a very sophisticated optical filter in front of the sensor and then carefully decoding the color information derived from the Bayer mask.
The science and physics that go in to ARRI’s color science are part of what makes the ARRI solution produce such a great image, remember we have a very high end scanner (ARRISCAN) that scans motion picture film and provides very high resolution very precise RGB color images for film DI. The same people and science are part of the development for Alexa’s ALEV III sensor. In short, we have A LOT of experience in very high quality imaging with CMOS.
Also keep in mind that realtime playback of ARRIRAW (uncompressed RAW data from the CMOS imager) does not require hardware acceleration like others, chiefly because we use no compression (thus no decompression hardware needed) and there are several solutions based on NVidia Coda which use GPU (Graphics specific Processors) which are very inexpensive and reside on retail available video cards.
Not to stray too far into the technical, lets just say it this way.
Really smart and experienced scientists and engineers at ARRI developed a sensor called ALEV of which Alexa uses the 3rd generation. This sensor makes very high quality color accurate naturalistic organic film like images. We take the raw data from the sensor and derive (through processing in the camera) uncompressed 1080P HD, at 422 and 444 color spaces and output these streams from the back of the camera. We also encode this information as Quicktime files with ProRes encoding at 220Mb ProRes 422HQ and 330 Mb ProRes 444. We then record these images on SxS cards,
Look at the images we produce and record and decide if they meet your technical and aesthetic requirements. On the high end we offer ARRIRAW for the most discerning applications and we move down from there to uncompressed dual 3G (quad link) or dual link for 444 RGB applications as well as uncompressed 422 HD then ProRes encoded 444 and 422, you choose. Choose based on the application and image quality, not the on paper specs. Everyone I have ever showed images from Alexa to, has commented on their quality and natural film like quality, but you must decide for yourself.
Many (almost everyone) Digital Cinema movies have been acquired at 1080P RGB so there is plenty of image quality and resolution quality available for the big screen if ARRIRAW at 2K is too expensive or time consuming of a workflow.
What makes ALEXA more expensive than a couple of cameras (and far less expensive than most cameras) is the build quality, image processing inside and choices it affords for workflow. I think you’ll find that the cost of the camera is FAR outweighed by the savings in post in terms of time money for whichever workflow you choose. Remember 444 ProRes is still RGB and affords a huge range for sophisticated and complicated keying and compositing along with wide range color correction.
Please see the images and workflow then decide what works for you in Chile. ProRes 444 is a non compromise workflow when it comes to image quality and flexibility.
Michael Bravin
Alexa Jedi
VP Market Development
ARRI, Inc. -
Daniel, The light collecting pixel sensors on the Alexa`s photo- sensitive plate look like ships` sails compared to the batches of little transistors that immediately handle their outputs. This is a good comparison just like most digital photoplate cameras are like. In order to reach the best sensitivity with no mentionable color compromise, each pixel actually handles white luminance minus a taking primary color to equal two taking primaries instead of one per pixel. (Twice the sensitivity of the first or quickest imagined way). Each “subtractive” sort of primary on a pixel is then matrixed against the immediately surrounding ones by using zero to a couple of lines, sometimes horizontal, sometimes vertical, delay, the pixel is in the middle of the delay and all mixed (matrixed) after. Some low- pass filtering “midway” in the amplifiers keeps out noise frequencies above maybe 60 MHz (crude guessy math here) to separate cleanly defined signal mixes from relatively strong unwanted seas of rounding, distorting noise. From this made, properly filtered Red, Green, Blue, output it`s then possible to produce signals of which are amplified from equalling around the same strength and frequency as a shortwave radio station, a strong light image into to camera is like a strong radio signal coming in, a weak light signal pouring in is co-incidently as strong (weak) as a weak shortwave radio signal coming in. They are amplified from this weakness in voltage and current, to become maybe 5 peak volts, RGB, side by side, pouring into the gamma corrector, which puts maybe 2/10 of a volt from each color channel into an analog to digital converter which creates most of the correct digital nightmare now hurling side by side out the output cables towards your standalone side by side ProRes and Raw recorders or maybe live Broadcast converter mixing boards and your editing computer too. Codecs, multiplexed sound, timing, and identification also in digital form are all small lunch talk next to this. The camera comes up with the goods, the receiving end is somewhat harder. In order to equal the Alexa`s pictures, you have to use a good moving film camera with fresh and lucky film and processing, then give it to a good telecine. Although the group`s been mostly talking about the digital flow and edit in- between the camera and some made, edited takes, most of the story from the maker`s end is really what it takes to hold the camera and microphone handles, directing them with the appropriate squeezes, then aiming this programming, live or re- used into markets of people. Their attention and return should produce your reward or you`ve failed. I`m going to have a huge laugh when Arri finds out what their new buyers, new customers, are like. It`s my universal business question, “What are Customers, the Customers, like?” The corollary of the matter is, that if the camera, your only Alexa? makes good company with the sock puppets and the Musicians most of the night, then makes news, entertainment, and education, otherwise known mostly as progress whenever it takes it`s breath by day, then you can stay rich and Arri can bust with surprise. Now do it successfully.
-
Wow Fred…don’t know quite what to say. That’s a lot of words strung together. I kinda lost you at the ship sails/photoplate part. What is a photoplate?
For a “slightly more accessible” explanation maybe this will work:
https://www.arridigital.com/technical/bayermask
https://www.arridigital.com/technical/imaging-technology/dteMichael Bravin
Alexa Jedi
VP Market Development
ARRI, Inc. -
Alexa vs Epic is going to be THE buzz of the next year.
And none of them are publicly out yet.Except for Jim & co + Offhollywood, Steve Gibby on the RED side, Michael and the Arri Staff + their select beta-testers, very few of us really know what we’re talking about here… Even fewer have had long sessions with both systems at this stage, and – if any – they probably are under deep NDA’s.
I am in the RED camp, just to be clear. Have a R1, go for Epic and work in RED-centric environments, currently on a TV-series for NRK (nrk.no) recording on two R1s + 5D.
That said. I am looking foreward to play with the Alexa.
I think it will be a great cam, and I see that ACs love the D21 for it’s “standard features, OVF and film-camera feel of operation”.
Actually I think both cameras will be rather cool to have… -:)Here’s a couple of off-hand thoughts, though.
Prores.
I think RED will have to do it, and it is recently confirmed that they’re actually are doing it right now. This feat looks so sweet from the outside, and will be “good enough” for a lot of projects (more on that later… -:)That said: I deliver 1080 prores HQ files as offlines and 640 h-264 for dailies at the end of the day for the 2-4 camera (depending on day) TVC I am currently on.
Transcoding 5k in realtime will need an upgraded rocket. So I guess we will see an upgraded rocket about at the time we see the first release Epics…
As long as the transcode is realtime, copyspeeds are more of a bottleneck than delivering offline files directly off set.
Even with an extremely small crew (DOP + on-set editor) we managed to set up a workflow without a rocket that gave us 3 copies + offline files @ the end of the day on a feature in Northern Iraq.
The “record prores” argument to me sounds more sexy, than I think it practically is.
Still I think it will be an extremely good sellingpoint. (even when the producers loose the RAW option, because it will be too expensive to practically go for)Formfactor.
This is a draw – to me.
The compact/lightweight setups possible with the Epic has become more of a dealmaker to me, than it innitially was.On the show I am curretly on, they’ve opted for a couple of 5D’s in the soup because they fit in “anywhere”. The image quality of the 5D is… not good. Pulling focus on it is nigh impossible (the 5Ds are rigged down to a minimum, that’s the whole purpose…)
Still a very experienced DP and a – in Norwegian Context – very high end production company opt for the 5D for its size and sensor-size. Line-skipping, moire, jello images, h.264 and all.
The possibility of landing these shots with a good camera with a good set of post-choices is in my opinion a big argument for the Epic.
After dragging my R1 around the world for almost 2 1/2 years, I also look foreward to being able to just “grab a cam and shoot”, which will be a lot easier with the Epic.
Alexa will undoubtedly be “like a filmcamera” out of the box. AC’s especially love “no-bullshit filmcameras”.
Epic will be possible to assemble “film-style”, but the out-of-the-box experience of Alexa will probably be very appealing to a lot of customers.
RAW
Not being an engineer, I won’t attempt on arguilg which is “better”. They probably both will be quite cool.
To me and the settings I’ve been working in – the “Compressed RAW” has been what has made it all possible, though. There aren’t a lot of SR/Codex decks lying around in Norway. And I will never have one. Thus, to be able to work with RAW at all – for most projects – is a clear advantage towards Epic. For me.Also seeing how the image actually can get better over time as the debayer/developing algorithms gets better, is quite an argument for RAW. For me…
VS DSLRs
Seeing how DSLRs are “good enough” all of a sudden, I think the possibility to put on canon/nikon glass and pull focus on a touch-screen on standard still-glass, is a good move.
It’s happening, and I think this is a trend that it will be hard to get rid of.DR
Seems to aim at about the same goal…Workflow:
Prores is simple
Simple is good for a lot of applications.
I assume both will record prores @ release…As for RAW, there just isn’t that many options for uncompressed RAW around here. I dig compressed.
Almost anything supports redRAW in some kind of native way by now. FCP seems to be the one getting first in and now being the worst option. Either Apple will fix that, or AVID/Adobe will get a whole new and quite big userbase jumping ship the next 6 months. That is really more of an Apple problem, than a RED problem though.
Online, REDRAW is by now uncomplicated and the options are plentyfull – as they are with ArriRAW (I guess)
Looking foreward to test the new Resolve… -:)Pixelcount…
I don’t really care too much for counting pixels.
But Norway (like Belgium) go 100% digital for screenings within the next year.As long as it holds up on a 4k screen it is not really an issue for neither commercials nor features.
I actually axpect both to do just fine…
DCMC
To me this is like prores.
It’s nice. Not a dealmaker.OVF
Will be available for both cams at a price4:3 sensor-option
A smash-down win for the Alexa for anamorphic shoots.
RED has announced – but not shown – a set of anamorphic lenses for the RED. Will be interesting to see…Economics.
RED has fitted very well into smaller markets where equipmentprices are a big part of the production budgets. AFAIK there’s 1 Scratch here, quite a few Nucodas, a couple of pablos, quite a few Smokes.Let’s face it, Norway isn’t really Hollywood. The total population is even less than London or Berlin. The RED has fitted very well into the sizes and budgets we’re working on here. The Alexa seems to partly address that. It’s going to be interesting to see how this plays out. My guess is that the bigger productions will go Alexa. For conformity. The one D-21 here is constantly rented out. But quite a few of the 60’ish R1s is rolling, too…
Well, these are my 2,5 cents…
Cheers!
Gunleik
-
Having made it this far reading this thread, I must say my head hurts a little. My thanks to Fred for making me read his last post three times. Now, I think I’ll take De Bayer (aspirin).
Since I don’t personally own a pocket protector, I’m not sure I’m qualified to join this conversation. But as a small-time DP, what I want to know is this: Does the Alexa make great images? How will it look on the small screen? Is the camera ergonomically and intelligently designed? Can I pop it off the tripod and run with it?Is it rugged and reliable? Is it noisy? Does it run hot? Are the controls and menus easy to access and understand? Can I easily operate it solo? Does the post path work for a wide variety of clients with different systems?
Considering you can now buy an Arri (for cryin’ out loud!) for less than what an F900 cost just a few years ago, I’d say it’s pretty friggin remarkable. For the small screen…and let’s be truthful, that’s where most of us here on the Cow work…who needs Red with all it’s baggage and headaches?
J.Cummings
Chicago
HDX-900/HDW-730S/DXC-D50
847-220-3172 -
[John Cummings] “But as a small-time DP, what I want to know is this: Does the Alexa make great images? How will it look on the small screen? Is the camera ergonomically and intelligently designed? Can I pop it off the tripod and run with it?Is it rugged and reliable? “
John,
After having another close look at Alexa 2 weeks ago my answer to all of the above is
It does take gorgeous images, built like every other arri product, (top quality) and it is intended to fill the needs of a shooter like you.” Is it noisy? Does it run hot? Are the controls and menus easy to access and understand? Can I easily operate it solo? Does the post path work for a wide variety of clients with different systems? “
It is ultra quiet and the units at NAB that ran for 12 hrs straight were never more than warm to the touch. All Arri products are designed so that either solo or assisted shooting are equally simple and straight forward. The button controls and layout are going to wake up camera interface designers as Arri has brought some of the simple logical button functions that change dynamically as you change functions.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
-
Great post!!
Pat McGowan
President, inMotion DVS Inc.
Ottawa, Canada
Sony PMW350K, 2 Sony EX-3s, Sony EX-1
Final Cut Pro (6 seats), CS5 (4 seats), C4D
Small-Tree GraniteSTOR 32TB RAID -
You get to shoot your scenes with one ice cube in your mouth, or rain hat, instead of the usual two.
-
[gary adcock] “Since Alexa is not shipping yet don’t you think this a little premature?”
Let’s see. The RED fanatics were getting RED tattoos two years before ship date, which equates to 5 years before the camera actually worked properly (which I still don’t buy).
I will be getting my Alexa tattoo in July.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .Ask me how to Market Yourself using Send Out Cards
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up