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ALEXA vs. RED?
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I believe that Codex is also a ProRes Licensee. I can imagine that there will be some good things from them, before long.
A quick point about ARRIRAW vs. ProRes:
– ARRIRAW will let you change exposure, white point, have a greater dynamic range and assorted debayer algorithm choices. (No one debayer method is perfect for every type of shot.)– The Alexa ProRes file has its exposure, whitepoint, and debayer mode “baked in”. There is also only one debayer method available in the camera. ProRes is definitely quicker for those that find the shot is acceptable out of the camera. Lastly, the imagery is clamped to Rec709 video and Gamma ranges. You won’t get a Log output to ProRes, as ProRes is already Rec709.
Each of these avenues has its purpose.
If I see one problem with Post users, it will be that people will want “Log” on a ProRes file. It will be like asking why their Mazda Miata can’t haul large cargo trailer like a Mack Truck. One is designed for speed (and convenience), the other is designed for Maximum Dynamic Range.
Bob..
Robert Monaghan, CEO
Glue Tools LLC
629 State St. Suite 220
Santa Barbara, CA, 93101
United Statestel: +1 805 456 7997
fax: +1 805 456 7998 -
Well seeing that Apple have been smart enough to expand the Pro RES line. Lets see if they will drop a Pro RES RAW version sometime in the future which allows for all those RAW features we’ve grown to know and love.
Things are really getting exciting
HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
http://www.bistt.com -
[Robert Monaghan] “people will want “Log” on a ProRes file”
10bit log? No need with ProRes 4×4’s 12bit depth. You get the same latitude as 10bit log without a curve… pure linear goodness!
No 12lbs in a 10lb bag.
No denying the Debayer and exposure mapping flexibility though.
John Heagy
NFL Films -
Hey John,
To what extend has NFL Films used/adopted RED camera’s. Does that workflow work in your pipeline?
When RED first came on the scene I thought it would be a great fit with NFL films, but in the high volume environment you guys work in maybe the Allexa looks more appealing?
David
Peace
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[David Battistella] “To what extend has NFL Films used/adopted RED camera’s. Does that workflow work in your pipeline? “
I am going to chime in on this as John and I have talked about this issue a number of times.
While it seems like RED would be a good fit actually offers too many challenges and too many points of failure at this time to fit into the existing workflow that Films uses without offering anything substantially better than the 16mm film they are shooting now.
One of the biggest issues was the slow speed of the sensor prior to the MX versions, but since a good deal of the NFL Film crews operate as self contained shooters the data handling would be difficult at the least, not to mention the turnaround time for R3D conversions into something useable for both Avids and FCP.
I had a wonderful time hanging with Michael Bravin from Arri last week getting the inside scoop and I have got to say I think Arri has hit a home run with Alexa. This camera has been planned from the beginning as a shooters tool, as all Arri products are, but add to that design a logical ease of use side panel for camera assistants and a thorough camera through post workflow that can deliver, ProRes, Raw or uncompressed content in the usual manner.
You can tell that Alexa is from a company that has been building professional tools for over 90 years.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
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Very eloquently put Gary. You make many very valid points and I think you are correct on many fronts. I thought initially RED would be a suitable replacement for 16mm film workflow, but in the case of NFL films it became obvious that it was not.
It will be nice to see the Alexa up close. I know that there are about 40 on order in Toronto.
David
Peace
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Is Arri`s Blauvelt, New York location preparing any Alexa demonstrations? Although e- mails to the Blauvelt location have been kindly answered they always ask Michael Bravin`s location to finish the answer. I`m just hoping that history doesn`t repeat itself like the Nagra- Ampex VPR5 where the salesman in the Nagra showroom in NYC told me that the reason why they didn`t have any VPR5s for sale in the NYC showroom was because no VPR5s had ever sold in the Eastern half of the USA in all of the past years. Maybe scheduling an Alexa demonstration if possible in the hotel Pennsylvania demo a couple of days ago (althought the notification e- mail came late) or a couple of other local haunts would be nice.
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[Fred Jodry] “Is Arri`s Blauvelt, New York location preparing any Alexa demonstrations?”
Fred,
Be assured that they are preparing to roll out Alexa all over the world in one simultaneous launch.My good friend Michael Bravin was kind enough to bring one of the Alexa demo bodies to Chicago last week for the Midwest Digital Cinema Society Alexa event presented in association with Fletcher Camera and Lens.
Right now there is a mad rush to complete the camera for delivery starting (I was told) in late June or early July. Currently all of the working units are onset for 2 upcoming films so working units will be scarce for the time being add to that, many of the key people at Arri were trapped in the US after NAB due to the volcano in iceland that is still reeking havoc on European air travel.
I also promise to do my best at keeping the herd at the Cow informed when I receive my unit for tests.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
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Fred
Of course we will have cameras EVERYWHERE, as soon as they start shipping. We have sold MANY ALEXA in NY and CSC will have inventory this summer (soon) and remember, ALEXA will not just be at the big traditional rental houses, we have many owner operators, production companies and smaller rental houses that have decided to buy ALEXA in the eastern US.
Of course Guenter and Juergen will have demo cameras in NY and I will be traveling around and on and on and on…BUT, we still have a bit of time before delivery, first group of deliveries in US is in mid June and we will have more cameras coming its so hard to be patient now that the world knows about ALEXA, but the wait will be worth it.. This will be the summer of ALEXA I promise!
Promise me you wont say “enough already” in the fall 🙂
The next chance in US to see the camera will be at Cinegear where there will be 1 working camera. Stay tuned for more info about NY area demos on our ALEXA website https://www.arridigital.com, and here on the COW
Michael Bravin
ARRI, Inc. -
Just a thought:
RED has a 4k bayer sensor, Alexa has a 3,5k bayer sensor, for a 1080P product I think the resolution difference is irrelevant. But, as it´s been said, both can give you the raw data and, in some point, both need a debayer process.
On the RED, the camera itself does a quick (low quality) debayer realtime for monitoring purposes (and I think Alexa should do the same) but records the raw image for a later and better quality debayer on a computer. We know, even if you need a 1080P output, you must make a full res debayer from your 4K image to get the best possible quality. After the full res debayer, you scale down to 1080P. Even with a big machine, a full res debayer is a very time time consuming process IF you have´nt a REDROCKET card (a very powerful and expensive hardware). So, the basic idea is: the camera records raw and leave the big job for a powerful computer.
The same logic goes for the Alexa if you’ll work with the RAW data, but there´s also the prores output module, I think it’s a great idea for streamline the workflow, to have a 1080P QT right from the camera. I think we all agree that using the RAW from the Alexa will give you the best quality image and more options for the grading process, that’s clear, but I’m afraid the Prores module will give a very good looking image, good enough for a untrained eye (or someone who can’t understand the benefits of RAW post) in a far more simple and cheap process than RAW. Ok, you can think of Prores material as proxies, but Prores 442 HQ and Prores 4444 are more likely online quality formats, so I understand the idea behind it is give you a high quality image to work from if you don’t want to go for a RAW route (and by the way giving up the “Digital Cinema” power for a more video-style workflow) but if this image is enough for your needs, that’s fine. I understand also that the Alexa has a very good sensor so it should easily give you a very good base image.
My concern is about the technical quality of the prores image, not for the video codec itself, but for the imaging process from the 3.5k sensor data to a 1080P size image. What kind of debayer process is used? As it’s a real-time in camera process, I tend to think it’s not a full res debayer, but if I’m wrong please let me know, but for me it’s hard to believe there’s so much processing power inside the camera and if may be, it should be a very energy consuming feature.
If the prores image is not finally as full-high quality as the RAW image, it’s not a sin. The problem from my point of view (I’m in Santiago, Chile) is that NOBODY will use the RAW image, mainly because it will be more expensive to record and process. You may think that to have a very high quality camera (and very expensive compared to the RED) and NEVER use it in full quality is like have a Porsche and use it just to go to the corner store, but well, it’s a Porsche (or ARRI in this case) and there’s a lot of fashion around it.
I’ll very glad if someone knows the inside workflow of the Alexa camera to get the 1080P image from the 3.5K sensor.Thanks and congratulations for a great board.
Daniel Dávila
Post-Producer
Santiago-Chile
https://www.kine-imagenes.cl
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