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A question most men will be afraid to answer
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[Jacki in Atlanta] “OK, I’m looking up at the faces of all the guys who are the moderators/leaders for this Business and Marketing forum here, and you are all GUYS. Nine. No women. This is not a dig at the Cow folks, I’m sure you would have more women here if they were qualified and volunteered.”
Hello Jacki in Atlanta,
Kathlyn, my wife, runs this site and has spent more time building the line-up of faces seen on the COW team than anyone else. I am up there in this forum because I love business and this forum is one of my babies. As she says: “I’d rather ‘do’ business, than ‘talk’ business.” She’s quiet, focused, disciplined and at the end of the day, she accomplishes a lot. Did I mention she’s quiet? ;o)
Kathlyn would love to get more women involved in this site as leaders and tries almost daily to get more women involved. She almost never succeeds. Why? If she/we knew, the situation would not be happening, that is a given.
Some of the most well known women in this industry are too busy writing books and/or selling their time to want to volunteer. The ones that are lesser known are often concerned that they do not want to be known as women online — many that we have run into at tradeshows, etc., tell us they post as Herman Gingdingfinkler or Rob Consonants.
An odd thing we have noticed over the years is that women often prefer mailing lists, and men seem to prefer forums. We have not done, nor have we seen any scientific evidence to back that up — we’ll have to wait for the multi-million dollar government studies — but it seems there may be some merit to that thought. It may be the social aspect of a free-form conversation against the more structured discourse of a forum. I have joked with Kathlyn over the years that I go to the store to buy something, I am not there to shop. Both Kathlyn and our daughters love to shop. It’s far more abstract than my desire to hunt down the object of my need and bring it home — quickly.
If there’s a social aspect to it, which there indeed seems to be and is borne out in many scientific studies that explore the way that men and women see their worlds, then maybe that plays into this a bit, as well. I don’t know, I just make stuff and don’t get things as over-complicated as some do.
We have tried very hard to get more women involved. When we ask, they kindly excuse themselves from the conversation.
We can’t speak for an industry but we can and will speak for the phenomenon as it plays out here at the COW.
As a man, am I afraid to answer? No.
But as a man I am perplexed as to why many women say that they love to “communicate” — while chanting the tired oft-stated mantra that men don’t and won’t — yet we see the reverse day after day and year after year here at the COW.
Kathlyn and I see it as just another tired stereotype that needs to die an ugly death. It’s a question that many women seem afraid to ask, let alone answer…
Believe me, Kathlyn and I have talked about it many times and we’d love to figure it out.
As Walter points out: we are all still questioned, examined, prodded, poked and compared to others almost daily. It isn’t based on sex, it’s that it’s a “what have you done for me lately” kinda thing. And again as Walter points out: as a freelancer, you are often a threat to those you are working alongside. That wouldn’t change even if your “plumbing” did.
As an aside: The COW exists just because it is a female-owned business. Kathlyn was given a grant by a major software manufacturer who said that even though I was the one with the experience, they would only give the grant to a female-owned business. So Kathlyn got in and rolled up her sleeves and has learned this and has done an exemplary job running it — truth is, better than I did in our first go round. That’s not pandering, the old-timers here know it is quite true. But the point is: it cuts both ways, believe me…
Your point about male-dominated film festivals, etc., and the lack of female entries is likely a reflection of the the same thing that we see playing out here at the COW. In 12 years of doing this, we have yet to see more than one woman volunteer — all the rest, we went after. Few were interested. Do we wish it was otherwise? Of course. But there are no magic answers — well, except in Harry Potter movies.
Are there more guys in this industry? Yes. I doubt that will change anytime soon. As to why women don’t seem to enter film festivals, I have no idea. I do notice that many of the people that we work with that run festivals are women. But we see what you mention in regard to the entries, few women.
Thank you for your comments and I wish I had answers and not more questions for you.
It’s a crazy world.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
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What a thread! And to think this is the week I chose to lay low and take a vacation.
There’s a small amount of over-reaction here to Jackie’s comments. She has said that some might perceive her as bitter for these comments, not that she is bitter. She cites statistics that, while may they may not coincide with the ways we run our respective businesses, are, in the macro sense, quite likely to be accurate. Jackie has thrown out a little-discussed topic and open discussion of it is good for our extended community. So discuss it and stop reading motivations into Jackie’s posts which may not be there.
None of us with Y chromosomes know what it’s like to be the only female in an all male work environment. Personally I don’t think that should matter in the least, but then as a white male I’ve rarely been in the minority in any work situation. Feminism has been slowly improving the business world’s acceptance of women in almost every job role, but just because Walter, Brian, Steve, Bruce & I don’t take advantage of gender-based pay inequities doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
So why is editing predominately male? Probably because of the same sort of past prejudices and biases which kept some scientific and mathematic professions predominately male. More boys were drawn to technical things than were girls. Good topic for discussion, so lets het back to discussing it.
Before I go back to the next to last day of my vacation, let me throw out a thought: I seriously doubt that in the decades long relationship between Martin Scorsese as Director and Thelma Schoonmaker as Editor has he ever given even a passing thought to her gender as it relates to her work. His primary concern has to be her skill. And just in case anyone has forgotten, with multiple Oscar’s on her shelf, Thelma is at the top of this male-dominated profession.
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God bless Marisu Fronc, She is a forum leader on Discrete edit*ors.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck -
OK, Jacki, here’s one for ya.
MAKEUP ARTISTS
99% of the makeup artists are female. Here in Arizona, they make $400 to $500 a day. The poor guys who are dragging cable, or moving tons of sandbags and c-stands are usually making a lot less. How unfair that the guys are doing hard labor and the girls are having a blast fixing somebody’s hair or dabbing a little powder on some CEO’s forehead.
Hey. maybe it’s their skills that determine their value. We bitch about it but we gladly pay it.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck -
Jacki,
I think it is a fair question. I’ve often wondered why I don’t see more women in the field than I do. I also wonder why I don’t see more male elementary school teachers, nurses or dental hygienists. In video production, there are women that do very well, just as there are men who do well in those career paths that women traditional gravitate towards.I guess you’ve read by now that it seems to simply comes down to the fact that those who step forward to do the work, and do it well, can succeed. I really haven’t seen a glass ceiling in this field other than individually self-imposed ones.
I think the COW is not atypical regarding diversity range compared to other technical online forums. (We have the same issue at NASA with trying to recruit female engineers and scientists. We get some brilliant minds, both male and female, but more males still apply for the jobs than females.)
I’ve worked with women who were really good editors (and videographers) and some who weren’t quite as capable. Of course, I’ve worked with more men that were very good at what they do AND more men who weren’t as good as women at what they did. That’s because 85% of the people in my past jobs were men.
Editing is a strange job in that you have to gravitate and balance between being technically, artistically, and socially competent. Miss out on any one of those and you aren’t as likely to go as far – male or female.
The fun thing that I’ve noticed in reading these posts is just how many of us have had female bosses. I’ve held at least a half dozen positions where either my direct supervisor or their supervisor (usually both) were female. They’ve all been pretty good bosses, especially the ones who had worked their way up through the ranks and had editing and shooting backgrounds. The main jobs I see women hold in the Video Production industry are supervisory positions, such as production managers and company owners. I just don’t see that many women stay in the *middle* of the job title/pay scale.
Why? My guess is that it’s because they stepped forward to do the work, and they did it well.
-TJA
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Eeechhh. Somebody is going through a divorce maybe?
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Every producer I ever worked under as a freelancer back in the day was a woman. Most studios I have worked for had women as senior management, producing, directing etc. I have worked with several female designers, not as many editors (as Walter mentioned) but everywhere I’ve been, there’s been a woman at the helm or in very key positions.
Now that I run my own studio, half of my clients are female producers, agency reps or marketing directors. less than half of the contractors we hire are women, but only in certain fields. Again, as Walter pointed out I have never received a resume or reel from a female DP or editor – I can only assume there are just certain disciplines that less women are pursuing.
As for the leaders, it has been mentioned but they are selected based on posting habits, helpfulness etc. and, in my own view, only about 10% of posters on CC are women. Every one of the frequent posters I see are men. This tells me it’s not a sexism issue at all, but rather a lack of more women posting here on a regular basis. I wish that would change, but what can we do?
Brendan Coots
Splitvision Digital
http://www.splitvisiondigital.com -
Why do you think that? Because of the sarcasm I injected into my post? You’ve got it all backwards because you are expecting me to say something anti-female. I like women. I really do. As a matter of fact, I married one. Three actually but the first two were only practice runs. After 13 years with my latest babe, I couldn’t be happier. My daughter has her own myspace. http://www.myspace.com/chuee_the_pug
My view is that we get we get, however we decide to get it. I believe in total equality. I do not believe in the affirmative action theory. I do not think a man should get the job because he is a man. Nor do I believe that the woman should get the job because she is a woman. Go to school, work hard, be better at what you do than everyone around you and rise to the top.
You’re the one with preconcieved ideas about how we think.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut Pro systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck -
Here is where I’m coming from. I was the only female in my ActionScript class of about 10. I have been the only female at a motion graphics user group out of about 25 people once or twice. The only female at a meeting about animation. I’ve been the only female at production software demos out of about 25 audience members a few times. I was one of three female TV photojournalists in a town where I had seen at least 30 guys shooting. I have been on a technical support contract before where there were only three women and about 40 men. I currently work in a company where I’m the only woman. The Avid User group list is currently the registered users, but when it was a word of mouth list you opt in to, there were about 4 women and over 90 guys. And I see WAY more successful male editors than women in the big post houses.
I’m puzzled more than anything.
Some of you are basically saying that quality, hard work, and talent rises to the top. I think it is more complicated than that. Sorry, but men are not so much more talented and intelligent than women on the whole enough to bring about those numbers. I don’t think there is only one reason. And I think women’s choices and typical qualities in demeanor are as big a factor as men’s.
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Not going through a divorce? Hmmm…Maybe you need to ask your babe to go to the drug store to pick up that prescription you have recently stopped taking because apparently you really need it.
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