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720 60p to 1080 23.98
I have two questions regarding (Panasonic HDX-900) 720 60p footage, being cut into a 1080 23.98 sequence we’re editing.
We have several shots we want to do as slow-motion. Initially we had these loaded in at 720 60p, through the AJA Kona 3 card- SDI in. Then we conformed in Cinema Tools to 23.98 to get a great looking slo-motion. But, these shots have been “blown up” 150% by FCP in the 1080 23.98 sequence and the quality is suffering. What’s the best way to up-res these into 1080 before? Does the Panasonic 12/1400 VTR do the up-res the best? I’ve looked at the Kona Card interface- it doesn’t list a 1080 60p. If we load in at 1080 23.98 it gets a weird cadence to it. Any suggestions?
Also some shots shot at 720 60p- we’d like to run in the 1080 23.98 timeline- not slow motion. How do we run this, without getting the weird jerky picture. I think when it’s transferred to 29.97- into a final output it looks ok. But what about 1080 23.98 delivery, then any other conversions to PAL, etc…
So is there a good way to load this into the timeline- to take care of this issue.Thanks.
PvP -
9 Replies
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The Kona does the best uprez but After Effecs and Compressor also do a very good job.
To take it in at 1080 23.98, you need to select the proper cadence offset. It’s in the AJA control panel. There are 5 possibilities. One is right, the other four are wrong and will cause the problem you are seeing.
Sean
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Thanks Sean. I take it you’re referring to – getting my 72060p- to play at a normal looking speed at 1080 23.98. Do you know which is the best one to select on the AJA control panel?
Also, if I do ingest that way- how about the shots that I do want to slomo? I used to use Cinema tools conform from 72060p to 1080 23.98- perfect slo mo. But it still requires a blow up on the sequence by 150%- how do you handle this, please?
Thanks
Peter -
Peter,
I can totally help you out here. I need to know what codec you are working in first.
I also need to know why you are working in a 1080p sequence. Is it because there is other footage that is natively 1080p, or is it only because 1080psf 23.98 is your delivery format?
Sean
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Ok thanks a lot Sean. Just got back online- and saw your message.
So we are producing a show shot on HDX-900 Panasonic cameras(DVCPRO HD) at 1080 24p.
We are delivering an uncompressed sequence- 1080 23.98psf, on HDCAM to the tv network.
We have mastered in Apple Pro Res 422 HQ- and this codec has now even been accepted by
Discovery HD- who are very very fussy about what they accept.We shot some scenes- designed for Slo-mo- at 72060p- I originally captured those at 720p
-figuring I needed to be in that mode to engage the Cinema Tools conform to 23.98 feature- to
get perfect slo-mo. It looks very good. It’s just when I went into the sequence, I noticed it had
blown up everything in the timeline- to 150%- that can’t be ideal. Ideally, we should be able to
up-res to 1080 first, then do the conversion to 23.98- in Cinema Tools conform. Shouldn’t we?
In the AJA/kona 3 control – I only see 72060- to 108023.98 psf- but I don’t think that will create the slo-mo, we’re looking for…just an up-convert. So how do we handle this?Also, as I said, a few shots need to be running at normal speed (without weird jumpy look)- at 1080 23.98 (from the 72060p original). How do we do this- for best results.
Is there a optimum setting in the Panasonic 1400 deck- that allows the deck to actually do the up-convert? thanks.
Peter
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[Peter von Puttkamer] “We are delivering an uncompressed sequence- 1080 23.98psf, on HDCAM to the tv network.
We have mastered in Apple Pro Res 422 HQ”??? So which is it, uncompressed or ProRes? Either one’s fine, I just didn’t quite understand what you’re saying there. Generation loss from re-compressing lossy codecs is of far greater concern than whether or not FCP does a good job upressing 720p to 1080p. But since you’re using either one of those codecs, you’re fine.
[Peter von Puttkamer] “I went into the sequence, I noticed it had
blown up everything in the timeline- to 150%- that can’t be ideal.”It’s not as bad as all that. In the sequence settings, you can change the scaling quality to “best.” Are you actually noticing degradation? Obviously some scaling methods are better than others, but no matter what it’s not going to look worse than the original 720p video would on a 720p monitor. Converting to 1080i60 is a more complex process in which you don’t want to trust FCP to take care of. And upconverting SD footage is also more complex. But going 720p to 1080p, same frame rate, is not complex at all. I honestly wouldn’t worry about it unless you’re actually seeing problems with it. Otherwise, you’re going to have to isolate the slow-mo shots and process those separately. You can use Compressor (which uses Lanczos scaling, considered to be the best software scaling algorithm available) to convert your footage to 1080.
As for when to do the frame rate conversion. I guess it doesn’t matter. I’ve never tried converting to 1080p60 and then doing a slowdown. Don’t know if it will work. Note that 1080p60 is not a broadcast standard, so you won’t be able to watch it on your broadcast monitor until after it’s been converted to 23.98.
Given your circumstances and the need to do slowdowns, I really think you should just let Final Cut scale everything. My philosophy is to always capture the native codec (if possible), native frame rate, and native resolution. After picture lock, you can re-process the 720p using Compressor or After Effects and reconnect the media if you want to make it as good looking as humanly possible. This way you’re only spending time with the footage you’re actually going to use.
Sean
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Thanks Sean- that’s great advice. Yes we are using apple pro res 422 HQ codec- it’s 10 bit, so I’ve heard it referred to as a “lossless” codec. I’ve done some tests using compressor- up-res to 1080 for the slo mo shots and didn’t notice a huge quality difference. So your advice to let FCP do the scaling- sounds like the one to go with.
So the main issue now- is best solution for running 720 60p shots at “normal” speed- in 1080 23.98;
An up-res through the Aja Kona 3 Card- selecting 72060p Primary Videoformat in, then which one of the 1080 formats? They have 1080p23.98 and 1080 sf23.98 (there’s also 1080p24) and 1080sf24)- which one would give the smoothest results for up-rezing and converting from 72060p, please….Thanks again.
Peter
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[Peter von Puttkamer] “Yes we are using apple pro res 422 HQ codec- it’s 10 bit, so I’ve heard it referred to as a “lossless” codec.”
ProRes is not lossless. Not at all. It’s very good though and can hold up multiple generations. You could say “virtually lossless” but I wouldn’t. It’s essentially the same as Avid hdnx.
[Peter von Puttkamer] “I’ve done some tests using compressor- up-res to 1080 for the slo mo shots and didn’t notice a huge quality difference. So your advice to let FCP do the scaling- sounds like the one to go with.”
Cool. Just make sure to change the motion filtering quality to best. Go into sequence settings, video processing.
[Peter von Puttkamer] “So the main issue now- is best solution for running 720 60p shots at “normal” speed- in 1080 23.98;
An up-res through the Aja Kona 3 Card- selecting 72060p Primary Videoformat in, then which one of the 1080 formats? They have 1080p23.98 and 1080 sf23.98 (there’s also 1080p24) and 1080sf24)- which one would give the smoothest results for up-rezing and converting from 72060p,”Generally, 3:2 removal on capture is very complicated. You need to know what the “A Frame” is and set the cadence offset accordingly. I can’t get into it as it’s complex. However, with Varicam capture it’s different and easier. FCP automatically detects the duplicate frames and can remove them without worry. It’s called “VFR”. See the Easy Setup AJA 720p ProRes 23.98 (VFR) – which I haven’t tried personally (I always use Firewire DVCProHD capture) but that should be the right one. However, I don’t believe it’s possible to upconvert to 1080 and do this at the same time. You should just capture 720p and deal with it they way you dealt with the slow-mo footage.
Sean
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Thanks- that’s great. Yes I just did 3:2 removal for some HDV 108024p footage we captured- got a good description of how to do it through compressor- it looks great. So if I capture at 72060p- then (don’t convert in Cinema motion) go thru COmpressor- up res to 1080 or even just 720 23.98 – it should work…?
Pvp
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Hi Sean, you wrote:
“Converting to 1080i60 is a more complex process in which you don’t want to trust FCP to take care of. And upconverting SD footage is also more complex. But going 720p to 1080p, same frame rate, is not complex at all. I honestly wouldn’t worry about it unless you’re actually seeing problems with it. Otherwise, you’re going to have to isolate the slow-mo shots and process those separately. You can use Compressor (which uses Lanczos scaling, considered to be the best software scaling algorithm available) to convert your footage to 1080.”
We have some 720p 24 footage we are putting into a 1080i_29.97_422_sq-pix sequence. I’ve had others say the best way for me to do it – barring hardware – is compressor. I tried a clip and set it up ok in comp but it wouldn’t take the interlace option under video settings. It lets me select the interlace check box; but when I go back in to look, its unchecked again?
Not sure I’m doing this right. Any ideads?
Thanks, Scotty
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