Simon Wyndham
Forum Replies Created
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Mike, can you send me your email address?
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Okay Ron. Read the date and times of that post. I’ve said all I can but it seems that you want read what you want to see and that is that. There is nothing more I can say. I’m outta here. The Cow has been an interesting place to hang out.
Thank you Jan for your response. I will offlist you if I can, and I appreciate your reply.
Over and out.
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Ron I made that comment in jest right after your first post to me. I’m sorry if you took it too much to heart.
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Hey Jan, it wasn’t me who introduced XDCAM into this discussion. As you will see from the very top of this thread it was the mention of HD XDCAM that brought me into it. You might like to look on things as being XDCAM chest beating. Hey, its the system I use a lot. I looked into P2. If you can tell me where all the clip organisation abilities are in camera, or even with the P2 free downloadable software it would be nice if you pointed it out. Because a) the manuals for P2 hardware certainly make no mention of such abilities, and b) you aren’t exactly endearing me to the HVX by practically making out I’m some kind of Sony henchman.
Being part of Panasonic your wages come from my pocket. This kind of hardware is not cheap, and if someone is asking about the various capabilities I will point them out as I see them. Being one of the product managers for a new piece of P2 hardware if I am wrong then please correct me. I don’t want to know about your sales to another company. Sony could probably tell you of a few that were looking into P2 but bought XD instead.
No, what I’m interested in is the facts. You have accused me of having limited experience. From what do you base these comments on? I certainly didn’t plonk down nearly 25k UKP on hardware without looking into all the options!
As I said, I might be in the market for an HVX200 depending on how the situation is at the time. So instead of painting me as some kind of person on a mission, which I most certainly am not having posted about the advantages and disadvantages of BOTH systems on many different forums, you would be better served to put me straight with facts. Not sales figures, but actual facts about how the system works.
1) Does P2 have on camera clip organisation and naming?
2) With regards to different types of projects what is your honest appraisal of both systems for different tasks?
3) Has Pansonic done any software upgrades to current P2 cameras that increase or add to their feature set?I did try to tackle the points Ron made in a constructive way. However I cannot help but get my back up at comments such as your Jan. Especially when you are supposed to be selling me on your syste, not putting me off it!
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Ron, if you read my first message in this thread you will see that it was because someone brought up the subject of the new HD XDCAM. Once that was in the subject, as someone who uses XD all the time, I can inject my opinion on how the two ‘systems’ (not cameras) compare.
Regardless of my comment I still have an open mind about P2. I made that comment about its flexibility because I truthfully do not think it has as much flexibility as XD. It *does* have much faster access times. But its clip organisation, along with storage space drawbacks and having to rely on hard drive backup on location means that it just isn’t as matured as XDCAM in terms of its feature set.
Now as for not having any interest in purchasing P2 technology, you couldn’t be more wrong. I am keeping a very close eye on developments because I realise that technology changes, is made better, and matures. As a matter of fact I am keeping an eye out on the HVX200 precisely because it MIGHT fit some of my needs and hence I MIGHT be in the market to purchase one. But that depends on a number of factors.
Jan reads these forums a lot, and I feel that as someone who uses P2’s rival system, as well as being someone who might at some point want to buy an HVX, that there is no harm in methodically pointing out the drawbacks of the P2 system in comparison. Having used XDCAM a lot I know what kinds of features are very useful in a non linear camera. Thus far Sony have made multiple updates to the XDCAM firmware adding new features all the time to existing hardware. There doesn’t appear to have been the same sort of support in that regard for P2.
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Well, with yours stunt show, what you do when XDCAM disc run out of its capacity? You have to stop filming and change disc. Same as with good old tape. With P2 you can keep filming presumably you have spare P2 cards. If you or production have an assistant, he or she can download data to portable storage while you still keep filming and not missing part of the action. In HD it takes 1 min per 1GB of data to download. Then you can re-use same card and still continue filming and not missing part of action. As cameras becoming more and more software driven, there will be always differences between brands and as you know software can be always upgraded. I do not think anybody will be 100% winner. It’s like NLE reality this days. To come to Thomson Infinity, there is choice of disc or compact flash memory to record on, so you have both of the sides covered and not to mention quality of the camera, but you have to still stop recording to reload media.
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No Ivan, you have missed my point. When the XDCAM disc runs out of course I have to replace it. But my point is that I can afford many XDCAM discs to take with me. Further instead of having to offload the footage or rotate P2 cards, I have all my original footage on the discs with no need to take extra hard drives etc with me. You will note that on that particular assignment I was a solo cameraman with no assistant, so your anaolgy of getting someone to offload the footage from a P2 card for me does not apply.
Over on the B-Roll forums there are people there working for networks using P2. Even their companies are having to limit the number of P2 cards they have due to cost. There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. I’m just coming at it from the perspective of someone who uses one of them every day. One can take my opinion or viewpoint as what may. The only thing I ask is that you don’t do a ‘Ron’.
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“So, then you are basically saying that you are out slumming, eh, Simon?”
Eh?
“So, then why on Earth would you want to hang out here in the first place, Simon??? Just curious…”
Ron, you have just accused me of having a closed mind. A closed minded person doesn’t hang out in forums as I do to get information on other systems. Hence the reason I also hang out here.
Beating a dead horse? Really? I’ve had this trouble before. I make points based on my experience with the systems and point out the factual advantages and disadvantages of both. Yet for some reason P2 has a following which just will not accept any mention of any drawbacks. It is utterly ridiculous. I will also say that many times I have also gone into the advantages of P2 as well. Being the main mod around here Ron you should well know that.
“I’d hope that a camera that costs many times as much, would do a hell of a lot of things that a lesser priced camera couldn’t claim to do.”
Thats a ridiculous statement. P2 does not = HVX200. P2 as a system even on the high end shoulder mount versions has the same clip organisational drawbacks. I am drawing a comparison between current XDCAM and current P2. What I was NOT doing however was making a comparison between a $20k camera and a $6k one.
I wrote out the drawbacks in a methodical manner, apologised to the last poster, and this is the kind of response I get from you Ron?
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Jiri, I’m sorry if I came across in a condescending way. I am so used to people on these forums making comparisons of high end cameras that they will never be able to to use or buy that I got a bit fed up of the way these cameras were being talked about.
Nobody here has used any of these new cameras yet. But I can say that the new HD XDCAM variation, limitations or not, is currently only one of two shouldermount non linear camera systems that records high def images (the other being Ikegami’s Editcam). Now what I would really like to hear about is if anyone here has experience of Ike’s Editcam?
Regarding P2, I still do not see its flexibility, even in the future. Even when capacity increases the footage will still need to be offloaded. There is no way to keep the footage on the original recording medium unless P2 comes down to $25 per card as per the XD discs.
I just do not like the idea of having to have even more equipment and hard drives to have to offload P2 footage onto during a production. Some people have cited that film only has limited run time per reel. But that is a limitation of film. I see no reason why such a limitation should be hoisted upon video as well. We should be beyond that.
If I am recording a live show with XDCAM I know that the discs are so cheap I can afford to bring a few more along just in case without having to offload footage as I go along. I recently had to video something as simple as a stunt show. As a solo cameraman there was no way I could have recorded P2, carried on videoing the event while hotswapping a P2 card for footage offloading onto a hard drive at the same time!
Currently, thought this may change in the future, a few more advantages of XD over P2 at the current time are;
1. The ability to organise clips on the disc and group them according to shot type, or scene number for example.
2. In the new XD firmware you can name the clip files too to make searching for the right clips from the disc even easier. P2 currently has no clip organisation at all. A case in point was on the P2 forums not so long back where an editor was rather annoyed at having to sift through hundreds of files with no clue as to what each one was.
3. Remote footage logging in the new firmware.
4. Proxies can be recorded to Memory Stick meaning that for initial editing you can have the speed benefits of solid state while still recording the footage to a durable and cheap storage medium.A lot has been made of P2’s speed as well as the discussion of the ins and outs of solid state storage. But hardly anyone has gone into the actual usage features of both systems before.
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Urr right. And Thomsons are used by which networks? Do you own a Thomson ENG? What are you basing your judgement on? Have you used a HD XDCAM? What is your basis for comparison between P2 and XDCAM? Have you used both? I could tell you a few facts regarding both. Disadvantages and advantages, and they don’t come through heresay.
Seriously folks, this is starting to sound like playground kids arguing over whether a Ferrari Enzo could beat a Lambo Diablo.
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Actually I might even be wrong on that front. My source of information states “shoots 16:9 aspect ratio 1080-line pictures in native 50i or 25p,” Make of that what you will :-))