Simon Ubsdell
6
COW Coins
Forum Replies Created
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Those are really interesting points.
I hadn’t thought about colours having relative energies in his context but of course they do (red has much more energy than blue, to cite the obvious example) and it’s something that hugely affects the cut. A lot of the time we think about grading to try and match shots to one another, but creating “energy contrasts” with colour is a fascinating idea.
Relative illumination is definitely another one that works. Cutting from a dark prison cell to a blindingly bright desert is an obvious “low to high energy” cut.
And there is certainly something to the question of relative angles (in addition to the point I made about shots sizes). The further we move away from a front-on 50mm mid-shot the more energy we add. High and low angles as you mention clearly have higher energy values. But I’d even argue that cutting from a front-on close-up of a character to the same size shot behind their head is a very pronounced energy jump. I think it’s also true to say that long lens shots have more energy than wide angle shots.
Lots to think about, thanks for this fascinating discussion.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
A lot of very interesting ideas there, thanks for sharing.
Following on from the Tony Zhou piece that Greg mentioned, I wanted to say a bit more about what I think is important to look for in terms of the cut.
We tend to focus on the actual moment of the cut, as in “where do we want to exit the outgoing shot?” But sometimes that can distract us from something just as important, namely “what is the effect of going from the outgoing shot to the incoming shot?”
And I think a very useful way of looking at this is in terms of the “energy” of both shots.
In essence there are two types of cut:
A) where the energy of the incoming shot matches the energy of the outgoing.
B) where the energy of the incoming shot differs from the energy of the outgoing.Both these types have two subtypes:
A1) where the energy of both shots is high, as for instance in a match cut on action.
A2) where the energy of both shots is low, for instance cutting between two wide shots of landscape.B1) where the energy of the outgoing shot is high, but the incoming is low energy, for instance cutting from a busy highway to an empty street.
B2) where the energy of the outgoing shot is low, but the incoming is high energy, for instance cutting from a placid lake to someone running.
“Energy” can be defined in a whole variety of different ways.
We might look at whether or not there is movement within the shot, or whether the camera is moving.
Or it can derive simply from the shot sizes, with a close-up having more energy than a wide shot, so if we cut from a close-up of someone running to a very wide shot of them running, we’re effectively going from high to low energy.
But we can also consider the “energy” of an actor’s look, which is something far more subtle.
And of course energy is not a constant – it can increase or it can dissipate towards or away from the cut. A rolling ball can come to a stop. An actor’s gaze can lose intensity.
If we set ourselves to think not just about “where do I cut?”, but “what is the energy of the outgoing shot as compared to the incoming shot?” we can make much better choices about our editing.
Do we want to sustain energy across the cut?
Do we want the low energy of the incoming shot to kill the energy of the outgoing?
Do we want to match two shots of low energy to create a feeling of tranquillity?
Do we want the high energy of the incoming shot to disrupt the calm of the outgoing shot?
“Where do I cut?” puts all the focus on the outgoing shot, but arguably that’s only half the equation.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
I don’t disagree at all.
I think it’s a fantastic piece, and as always he manages to get us to see things we wouldn’t otherwise have seen.
As a musician, I was just being a bit pedantic about the terminology. I think as editors we can sometimes throw the word “rhythm” around a little loosely, but we all grasp what we mean when we use it. But really it doesn’t change anything.
Perhaps we prefer “rhythm” to terms like “timing” and “pacing” because it conveys the feeling we have about it, which is that it’s something instinctual and “felt”. Whereas those other terms feel more cold and clinical and less descriptive, even if they’re often more “correct”.
Does that make sense?
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
I love that piece from Tony Zhou but I think he’s overusing the term rhythm when he really means something a bit different.
What he’s actually saying, and it’s a hugely important point, is that you need to allow the space for things to happen, especially the space between words.
I’m not sure “rhythm” is the right away of explaining that.
Rhythm is strictly speaking a word to describe repetitive patterns and in most cases that’s not what he’s talking about. Perhaps more accurately he’s talking about “timing”.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Mark Suszko] “Indeed I did read it; it’s very good and accurate IMO.”
Thanks very much, Mark.
[Mark Suszko] “I think if you polled pro editors 90 percent of them have had *some* musical training and/or talent.”
My experience is as bit different in that the majority of the editors that I’ve worked with haven’t had formal musical training, but what they all do have is a real passion for music, which gets them close enough to the same place.
Back when I was hiring new editors, the one thing I looked for more than anything else was exactly that – a serious interest in music. It always seemed like a very good indicator of whether someone would be up to the job or not.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
Yes, the musical thing is really important, I think. You might be interested in this piece that I wrote for Oliver’s blog that takes an in-depth look at just that subject from a musician’s perspective:
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2018/11/22/editing-and-music-composition...
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Christophe Pettus] “Ah, I see! Keypad “+” and digits are distinct from main keyboard “+” and digits. Thank you!”
Ah sorry, forgot to mention that. Yes, that’s correct.
I can’t imagine using anything other than the keypad for this kind of thing (because it’s so ridiculously faster and easier) so it’s hard to remember that others still do.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Christophe Pettus] “I just tried it (selecting the last clip in the timeline, typing), and nothing happens.”
Very odd. It works just fine for me and I use this all the time. You did use the plus or minus sign before the value, yes?
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[CHristophe Pettus] “1. Is there an equivalent of the FCP “range selection” tool? I’d like to select a range of the timeline, and operate on it, regardless of clip boundaries. Is setting an in/out point on the timeline the only/correct way of doing this?”
If you have no clips selected, you can set in/out points and the resulting “region” can be copied or cut (depending on the track selectors). You must deselect all clips for this to work.
[CHristophe Pettus] “2. An operation I do all the time in FCP is select a one or more clips, and then move them by a fixed amount. The FCP way I did this was typing “+1:00″ (or whatever) to get the move to happen. Is there an equivalent way of moving by an exact amount on the timeline, or is dragging the way to do this?”
This works the exact same way in Premiere. Select the clips, type your increment, and when you hit Enter they will move accordingly.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[ryan elder] “The producer also wrote the script, and in the script the found footage is actually in there.”
This is unfortunate.
Here’s a universal truth: a script is a truly terrible blueprint for any kind of film. For drama it’s a necessary evil, but for documentary it can be poisonously problematic.
I’m guessing your producer/writer is not hugely experienced, and that makes it doubly hard. Documentaries need to be made in the cutting room not on paper before shooting begins. Preconceived ideas, especially about the specific mechanics of the edit, will almost certainly not work exactly as envisioned. And I’m afraid to say this particular idea (to use found footage) was not a good one. But that said, I very much doubt you will be able to persuade your producer/writer to change their mind – because again the ability to be flexible about the plan is something that comes with experience and is not easy to come by.
[ryan elder] “I don’t know if it’s my place as the director and editor”
It is absolutely your place in those roles to come up with suggestions and to demonstrate the possibilities presented by alternative routes. Your producer/writer might not go with your recommendations but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t put them forward, even to the extent of coming up with a version that works for you and presenting that.
[ryan elder] “I tried that already and couldn’t really find a lot”
You’re kidding, right? There’s an entire world of imagery out there. I can’t believe you can’t find thousands of images that will enhance your film.
[ryan elder] ” Will the old DP be okay with that do you think, if we got someone new to take over for new footage,”
It is very rare that documentaries manage to shoot everything that the film requires before moving into the cutting room. It is absolutely standard practice to go out and shoot additional material as the need arises and the film demands. As for what to say to the DoP, you ask if s/he is available to shoot the additional material, and if s/he is not, then you as the film-makers are perfectly at liberty to engage someone else. The DoP can still get the main credit and you can credit the additional stuff as Second Unit.
In this case, though, because it’s an experiment that you don’t know whether your producer/writer will go for and you don’t necessarily have a budget for it, I’d recommend you shoot it yourself as a rough temp, using your phone if you don’t have a camera handy. The idea at this point is simply to test the viability of this alternative route. If that’s what you are interested in trying.
If you don’t want to try it, then ignore that part of my recommendation, and simply work with your found footage, but better. Use it to create spaces between the words, as I suggested for the additional shoot option. Go through the edit and try to avoid the problem you have right now where the B-roll clashes with what’s being said. Unless the visuals are fully enhancing the words, don’t put them over the words – make space for them between the words.
[ryan elder] “How do other documentary filmmakers use found footage and make it work though?”
They don’t have a dodgy fixed plan, based on a poorly conceived script, going into the edit. They find what they need that enhances the story once they know what the film needs from having started to cut it – and if they can’t find it they shoot it.
[ryan elder] “As for the opening, what if I just let the title play out, before the voice starts, would that be better?”
This is the bit that made me lose confidence in the film before the first five seconds were over. The graphic style is very cheesy, but worse than that I simply didn’t understand what I was seeing/hearing. Was this the title of the piece? Or the start of the following sentence? Or something else?
When did you last see the title of the film as the first thing in the film? It’s just not helpful and in this case it’s hugely confusing, because the viewer doesn’t understand the grammar – you haven’t given us even a ghost of chance to understand that this is a title.
And it means you’re starting too fast. Never start too fast. Your opening moments are the bit where you grab the audience and make sure they are both settled and engaged. You’ve managed to achieve the opposite. Before we even reach the first cut we’re struggling to make sense of something – and not in a good way.
Start slow. And not with graphics. It’s a movie not a Power Point presentation. Grab the audience with visuals and with sound, not with text.
And don’t hurl a hurricane of spoken words at us, before you’ve given us a chance to settle and have confidence in your film-making.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki