[Paul Carlin]

I have found more info about this issue from an Avid Whitepaper on Metadata. See…

https://www.avid.com/resources/whitepapers/avidmetadata_wpv2.pdf

They mention that the 23.976p NTSC, 24p NTSC and 23.976 720p all run at 30fps timecode. ONLY 23.976 1080p runs at 24.

In addition, 24p PAL runs at 25.

While I can understand that for technical reasons this is the way they decided to go, there should be a workflow for importing a 23.976 EDL into a 23.976 project. Even if this requires the conversion of 23.976 timecode back to 30 internally. Populate the metadata and your good to go.

[Paul Carlin]

As good as Bouke is with numbers, the fact is that Panasonic’s P2 cameras record at 23.976 (AKA 23.98), which is confusing given the fact that they chose to name it 24p. Especially since 24p is a legitimate frame rate used since the dawn of film.

There is no issue with pulldown since there is none. You shot 24pN.

I agree with the fact that it is your audio that is giving you the problem. If you modify the video to match bad audio you are only going to make to problem worse down the road.

Restamping the audio will not help since this is not a 24p/23.876p issue.

I would take Jon’s suggestion first, followed by the freezing and marking the edge of the CD trick! :). After that, try freezing the Avid for 48 hours and cover it in black plastic to avoid light leak. Also, try covering your head with foil. It works for me.

[Paul Carlin]

Yes, the process of converting 30i to 24p timecode is very simple. The task of doing it accurately for hundreds of events (each event has four timecodes) as well as modifying transision durations and prediciting source code matches during timewarp speed change match frame edits… and you best leave it to a computer program to accomplish. Oh, and then toss in Drop-frame timecode and non-standard cadence and you will want to think twice about doing it on paper.

However, that wasn’t the point of this thread. The point is that you can not import a 23.976 EDL in to a 23.976 NTSC Project.

Yes, it’s a simple request and sounds like a logical thing to do… but you can’t.

[Paul Carlin]

Negative.

[Paul Carlin]

I would like to appologize for misleading you into thinking that you could simply bring the 23.976 EDL back into your Avid and batch capture (See #3 in my original post). As I have since discovered, it seems that this is not a workflow that Avid wishes to support.

Yes, you can use matchback to generate a 24p EDL as Michael points out… but beyond that… there is nothing you can do with it on an Avid in SD.

Good luck.

[Paul Carlin]

All that metadata isn’t helping me accomplish my goal. And I’m not asking for much, nor do I have some exotic request.

I want to be able to take a 30i project and conform it to a 23.976 NTSC project. This exact task is being done by a room full of people in Burbank using printed EDLs that I convert for them in Smoke.

Metadata or not.

[Paul Carlin]

Find the CD player and disc you used on set and connect it to your Avid. Done.

[Paul Carlin]

Drop and Non-Drop run at the same speed… it’s just a numbering scheme.

[Paul Carlin]

I have traced my problem to my own assumptions based on logic and reason. Having worked on Avid as long as I have, I should have known better than to assume anything. My problem can be traced to the fact that I work on other systems that do follow logic and reason, and applied that to the Avid by mistake.

My first assumption was that a 23.976p NTSC project was running timecode at 23.976 frames per second. This appears not to be true. If one were to create a new sequence, the Master TC1 track counts 30 fps. Yes, there is a 24 fps timecode track, but it is hidden by default and must be shown and selected in the composer.

To further illustrate my point… if you import a TGA sequence into a 23.976 NTSC project, the result in a SD 23.976 NTSC clip who’s timecode track is 30 fps. ¿Por qué? This makes no sense to me. Sure, you can duplicate the START column to the TC24 column in some arcane secret handshake technique only known to a select few wizards to generate a 24 fps timecode track… but this is ridiculous… I’m in a 23.976 project! Am I not?

What drives me crazy (yes, I am crazy) is the fact that if one were to create a 23.976 1080 project, then the timecode behaves as one would expect. The Master TC1 is indeed 23.976 fps and uses 23.976 timecode, not 29.97 like the faux 23.976 NTSC project does. Same with imported sequences and source clips. Genuine 23.976 timecode by default.

So why does the 23.976 NTSC project behave differently than the 23.976 1080 Project?

Fine. So be it. Moving on.

Then I came up with a brilliant idea! Since the HD projects DO handle timecode correctly. Why don’t I just import the EDL into a 23.976 HD project and re-format the sequence to a 23.976 SD sequence, decompose and wala! Damn, I’m brilliant! Sure enough, the 23.976 EDL imported correctly, the sequence lined up accurately and then this… “Could not change the format of sequence NICOLE KIDMAN SEX TAPE 24P. This conversion from HD to SD is not supported”

Brick wall again… brought to you by the people in Tewksbury who obviously don’t get around to the real world very often to notice that there is a 30 to 24 fps workflow happening out here.

Now… let me attempt to explain why there is a brick wall. Stay with me on this.

NTSC has only one frame rate. There is no such thing as 23.976 NTSC. It doesn’t exist. There are various ways of preserving 23.976 moments in time inside 59.94 fields, AKA Pulldown and Advanced Pulldown. In the end, the tape always runs at 29.97 fps. Yes, there was a time when we all used videotapes, and some of us still do!

So, to be able to edit 23.976 moments in time per second and display it on a NTSC monitor requires some behind the scenes trickery. First, pulldown is removed during capture to create the 23.976 media that you can edit with. Second, the 23.976 output has pulldown inserted into it in real time to allow playback on a NTSC monitor, and most importantly… onto a NTSC videotape. Remember, NTSC is 29.97 only.

But what we tend to forget is that since the VTRs are all running at NTSC 29.97 fps, their timecode is also running at 29.97. What the Avid sees when it captures and outputs to tape is 29.97. It has to, or it wouldn’t be able to control the VTR. Therefore, a 23.976 NTSC project on the Avid is really not much different than a 30i NTSC project, as far as timecode goes.

However, this is no excuse. There is no reason that the defacto TC tracks can’t be 23.976 like their HD brethren. In my opinion, they should. Or, if that is too difficult for the tewkburians, the 24 TC track should pop out from the screen and hit me in the forehead when I’m in a 23.976 NTSC project.

In conclusion, there is still NO way to take an existing 30i NTSC project and convert it to a 23.976 NTSC project… that I know of… on an Avid. If Avid is baffled by this conundrum of a workflow, I suggest the sit down in front of an Autodesk Smoke. This tool for grown-ups has a great 30i to 24p workflow that… well… works! There are two different ways of importing footage from VTR. You can remove pulldown from 29.97 VTRs, or you can bring in native 23.976 from VTRs that support native 23.976 (HD decks). You can convert 29.97 EDLs into 23.976 EDLs. You can import clips at any frame rate, selectively remove pulldown on clips and all kinds of other tools required to conform projects in the real world.

Oh… and you can downconvert a sequence from HD to SD! Imagine!

[Paul Carlin]

The best quality solution is to reconform your project at 23.976p. You would have the highest quality image as there are 6 less frames per second to compress, as well as no interlacing to deal with = More bandwidth for image quality. You DVD should be authored from a 23.976p Anamorphic Uncompressed QuickTime. The 23.976p QuickTime also makes for much better looking web video.

1) Output an EDL for each layer.
2) Convert the 29.97 EDL to 23.976 using EDLmax 24, a friend with a smoke or flame who can do you a favor, etc.
3) Import the EDL back into the Avid and create a 23.976p Sequence (Good luck getting this to work).
4) Batch capture and remove pulldown on ingest.

The audio will be the same as this is not affected by the frame rate of the video. Simply import the final mix and drop it in.

The easy solution is to keep the sequence at 30i and figure out why you see such bad interlace artifacts. You may have a field ordering problem. You should be exporting a Lower Field First QuickTime from the Avid to send to the DVD encoding software (for NTSC projects).

And last, you may have shot using advanced pulldown. This is a good and a bad thing. Good if you were finishing at 24p. Bad… in fact really bad… if you are finishing at 30i. The 2:3:3:2 pulldown cadence was never meant to be used as a final product and will reveal itself as inconsistent and jerky cadence during 30i playback. You must, if you respect the craft in any way, reconform your project at 23.976 by removing the advanced pulldown on capture (see above).

Do not, by any means, deinterlace the project. You are tossing away half the resolution of your image. In addition, it may get rid of “shredding”, but will not solve the cadence issues. Deinterlacing is not a solution and would be considered blasphemy to a great SD camera like the Panasonic SDX900.