Ned Miller
3
COW Coins
Forum Replies Created
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Yes Sebastian, you’ve got to learn how to communicate first. Try to be polite. This is a forum for pros. Mark can’t be available to referee all the time. Also, check your spelling, punctuation, grammar and tense then proof read so we all know you are educated…
Let me help you out since until recently docs was my specialty. I am now corporate centric because I figured out (too late in life) that is where the big money is. First off, when anyone calls or emails and asks how much “by the hour”, that is a strong clue that they have never hired video pros before and I will tell them I have a half day, or what I call my Short Day Rate, which is about 2/3rds of my Full Day Rate. The only people in our field who do hourly charges are the legal videographers and they will usually have a two or three hour minimum. Besides the time you take preparing your gear there is also the commute back and forth so there is no way a pro can survive working by the hour.
I have shot many of these vanity or legacy videos, usually for some zillionaire about to have a big birthday, their children pay for it, or a CEO retiring, usually shown at a banquet. I haven’t produced them just have been the videographer on them. If I were you I would ask them to send you some links to similar videos that they liked, that way you get an idea of the quality level and can figure out if you can do it alone or need some crew. Next I would figure out based on what they have told me how many days of shooting there will be. These things tend to have lots of talking heads so it could take a weekend of filming at the family’s estate. Usually there are many still photos they want you to make a nice treatment of, in which case I recommend templates from motionvfx.com
In terms of editing you can’t quote by the hour, these types of clients want to know what the final cost will be, so you have to guesstimate for yourself how long it will take with the usual revisions back and forth, plus how many DVDs they will order. Large super wealthy families may order quite a few. Once I have figured out how much I would like to charge and I have an idea as to how long it will take me, plus if I have to hire some crew, I then ask the prospect what they wanted to “keep it under”. I was taught to ask that before presenting my estimate. Why? Because what they say may be much higher than what I was about to say. There are producers who specialize in these mini documentaries and you can research what kind of range they get:
https://movingportraits.tv
https://www.familylinestudios.com
https://www.treeringfilms.com/Legacy-Video-Products/Family-Documentary-Epic-Package.aspxThe one thing they will have in common is they are dealing with families that are wealthy, otherwise it’s not worth the aggravation and time. I’m guessing but I think something under five minutes for a wealthy family would be $3500-$6000. That is just my educated guess. Sometimes if I feel that the prospect is merely a tire kicker, calling lots of video people for prices, I will ask right off what did they want to “keep it under”. If I consider their answer to be too low I will refer them to someone I know to be much cheaper than myself as a favor or a good bottle of wine.
So (and you should never start a sentence with So), that’s my two cents from someone doing this from before you were born. Many things will change in our industry but pricing psychology seems to have stayed the same. Since you do weddings that would be a good way to network and learn if (wealthy) families are interested in a legacy video, especially if a loved one such as The Patriarch of The Family is about to meet their maker. If they liked your wedding video that’s a jumping off point for more work besides weddings.
This time when you respond, if you still need to respond, I think it would be a good idea to start your persona anew. Hit Reset. Check your spelling, punctuation, grammar, tense and attitude. Be deferential to those who know so much more than you yet are taking time out of Happy Hour, like I am.
Later
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.com -
Over the years I tried several others but realized Quickbooks is the way to go because that is what the professional bookkeepers and accountants will now accept. Until recently they looked down their noses at it as unprofessional but now most all the self employed people use it. I will give you a word of warning though, I learned this the hard way:
If you are on a Mac and your accountant is on a PC, when you convert back and forth there are glitches, no matter what they say. As usual the Mac version was an afterthought. Unfortunately most bean counters are on PCs so I have to print everything out for mine.
As to the way Bob Zellin does it, I have automated his process. Although I keep all receipts in case of an audit I now use my business checking debit card for 90% of all biz expenses. If I use cash to tip a skycap or bellman I write that down. Once a week I sit down for about one hour and log into my bank and then open the Quickbooks window. I designate each expense to it’s category by just two clicks and sometimes need write the name of a new recipient in. Since most of what we do is repetitious, like Best Buy, Radio Shack, B&H, etc., it auto fills. There are many small biz owners who know how to automatically have Quickbooks and your bank reconcile online, but I am not smart enough to do that. If I balance within $200 I shrug and call it close enough, but there is a feature that will balance you to the penny.
Another good reason to use the debit card and not use cash for business expenses is if you are ever audited the IRS looks more closely as to where the cash went.
I’d also suggest that when you first buy it hire a real bookkeeper to come over for two hours and set up your account structure based on your tax returns and what your accountant requires. The one downside is that it makes cheap looking invoices.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.com -
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Mark’s last post says it all and that is how the business has been run. The rule is: You don’t steal your client’s client. Got that kid? There is an ethical framework not to steal the clients of the people who got you on the job. What don’t you understand about that? But you Sebastian, you go right ahead and give out your business cards and steal all the clients you want. Welcome to our industry…
And judging by your comments about a contract for someone you hire for between $250-$500, obviously you have never been to Small Claims Court like I have many times. That contract would not be worth the time of sitting in court all day trying to get it enforced, then trying to collect.
This forum should have some minimum requirements for participating, like real professional experience perhaps?
But thank you Mark for saying politely and in great detail what we all know, except Sebastian and the soundman I referred to in the original post.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.com -
Hey Patrick,
My original idea was to collect a bunch of responses from my post and when I send him his check I would include the link to this thread.
Later,
Ned
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.com -
No Sebastian, it is NOT OK to give your card offering your production services to a client of the person who introduced you, at least among my generation. We were taught it is unethical. That is why I started this thread. I assume you are under 28 years of age. You have to work to get your own clients, not poach the clients of the person who brought you.
Geeesh….this is the kind of attitude I have been experiencing the last five or six years with the new people entering the biz. I attribute it to what several of the posters mentioned: there now is no formal training/education/apprenticeship system where a young person learns the ropes, or “rules”.
I think I am done with this thread, Sebastian confirmed my observations.
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Yes, field production is quite different. It is not a calm, temperature controlled office environment. Every work day is usually at a different address, a different start time, searching for a different parking garage, locating a different loading dock, etc. It takes a unique personality to function in this end of the biz. If someone is just 30 minutes late it can become a disaster, especially for a live event shoot. There’s a stress level that starts a little before call time. I am the one looked at with a raised eyebrow when someone I hired messes up. I have brought along many young up and comers, many who are now my competitors…
But Walt you were right earlier. Him handing my client his card was not a danger to me, he would never be hired. I was merely insulted, and wondering if this is now OK to do. So many things have changed in our biz in a downhill direction I thought handing the client your card might now be seen as normal, a difference in generations, like neck tattoos.
And Terry, yes I do have many “bizarre” rules. For instance, I never shoot pool with someone who grew up with a pool table in their house. I insist the band aid box is always in the same place so I don’t bleed all over the counter while looking for it. DVDs needing to be returned must be placed where we keep the car keys in a bowl to reduce overdue fees. Never hire a crew member or editor who also likes to shoot especially is they own camera rig(s). And… don’t hire anyone who risks my relationship with the client. That’s why I developed the “rules” and I’ve survived and thrived thus far.
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But….how do I hire someone with 10-15 years experience who is still in their twenties?
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.com -
Yes Walter & Mark have hit it on the head. The Millenials have a whole different way of looking at work and business relationships, there are many TED Talks on the subject such as:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-enHH-r_FM
I have a Millenial son and daughter. Their relationships to the people who hire them is quite a different mind set than what my generation practices. Perhaps I should have a New (Young) Person Checklist and mention some of my idiosyncrasies such as: Don’t hand my clients your business card, don’t trust estimated drive times from GPS, use two alarm clocks, no underwear showing, do not look at your phone until the lunch break, etc. I suppose I have been doing this for so long I take all this for granted as common sense. I have never had to do so much handholding as I have in the last few years.
In the “old days” we all could count on a production community through the Illinois Film Guide, Chicago Film Office, etc. but that has now moved to Craigslist, like it or not. I have never gotten any work from CL but I have had to post for various services and have found really good crew members and post specialists. In fact, I am about to produce a training series and will get ALL my talent from CL. My last major project my lead actress showed up with an oozing cold sore from my long time talent agency (so no more talent agencies!) I had rented a grocery store and was faced with a possible re-shoot I could not afford. Sorry to digress….
I wish I was 25 and starting out again! The only upside to getting older is you are more experienced.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
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OP here:
Well, I didn’t mention anything to him about the card, my jaw had hit the floor, he is a nice guy, very technically capable, someday will be a good soundman. He knew he had done wrong regarding being late, which I will address below. I didn’t want to pile on, I was just checking on this forum if it was now OK in our biz to blatantly try to steal a client? And it should be taught in production classes when they teach about freelancing.
Alex & Joe, in regards to my “rules” it’s a tenet in life to learn from one’s mistakes. Since I have freelanced this long (33 yrs) and been on various crews and booked people at least a couple of times a week, here’s what I know to be reality:
• Someone who does not own a car, meaning they don’t drive the greater Chicago metropolitan area all the time, will be late 100% of the time to a far flung suburban location, especially if they are young. We no longer have defined rush hours, we have horrible construction areas, terrible weather, etc. They will borrow a car or rent from Zip car etc. and being young they tend not to use maps like us old codgers or listen to live traffic radio. They will believe what their GPS arrival time says or what Mapquest predicts. That is why it has been a 100% rate of tardiness.
• I avoid hiring someone who work nights such as a bartender, waiter/waitress, actor etc. for a crew member because my experience is that they will have been out late the previous evening. And even if they are not working the night before our shoot their circadian rythms are of a night owl, so a 6AM call is not in their best interest.
• I prefer to hire people at least in their thirties because I am not running a film school and need crew members who have been doing their craft for preferably ten years. PAs can be younger or perhaps a Lite Grip, but key positions forget it. In fact I prefer the Lite Grips to be in their twenties for strength and stamina.
• Married: depending on the person, if I have a shoot on let’s say Thursday, I may first say, “What are you doing Wednesday night?” If the response is “My buddy’s band is opening at a club” or “I have a date”, then I will most likely not book the person. Our call times are usually around 7AM and with the drive time that means waking up at 5AM. I need for the person to be there fresh, alert and bouncing on the balls of their feet like a point guard. If someone is married then I am more assured that during the week they aren’t out late. Also, if they have kids, they are more likely to appreciate the work.
So in sum, my “rules” are based on being burned over and over. It’s just self preservation and it works.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.co