Ned Miller
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COW Coins
Forum Replies Created
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I’m now at the age that if someone was to ask me to do something professionally at, let’s say 25%-50% of what is my “normal” charge, I would silently calculate in my head what their rate probably is, and respond, “So, you’d do a counseling session for $40?”. I’d love to do it face-to-face. Of course, I would only insult them back if I knew I did not want to work with them, but I find it insulting when they want me to do it for the same price as the Better Call Saul crew. Somehow, as video dweebs, people think it is OK to make us grovel? If someone who is salaried starts to do it to me, I have often responded snidely: “I could do it for the price you suggest, but if I did that often, I would soon be out of business.”
I do recognize that often the first figure they throw out is a bargaining tactic, especially if they are Video Virgins. Sometimes I would have estimated my first go round at 20% more than I was willing to accept, and then come down. Just like when you are selling something on CL. I always operated on what the market would bear rather than a rate card. After all, everyone likes to feel they’re getting a deal, right?
I have been asked to do videos for an unbelieveably cheap price by prospects who I sense are very wealthy, based on their address, and I have then Zillowed them. Do you ever do that? If they come up as owner of an expensive spread, I will put in a higher price. I HATE feeling like I have been taking advantage of.
I am now doing primarily free, charity videos and working 2 or 3 days month for my existing clients on paying gigs. Only for the ones that pay well, pay fast, are fun to work with and have interesting subject matter. Life’s too short…
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
Oh! I thought you were complaining about what has happened to the pricing of video services. Well..that ain’t too bad in terms of being rude. She would have never referred you anyway.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
Hello Greg,
I am in semi-retirement now, tried to retire but too many old clients keep calling wanting “one more”. Every time I try to delete this favorite bookmark of CC I peek and decide against it, too attached, but your post above reconfirms why I wanted out. Thank you for that! What you posted is typical of the inquiries I received the last decade, mainly due to my high SEO, the web brought in a lot of cheap tire kickers.
My mentor taught me way back that all clients may be divided into two categories: Those who are spending their own money and those who are spending their company’s money. YOU ALWAYS WANT THE LATTER.
At least that was true of the first three decades of my career. Now, even large companies are real cheap because they expect video, which they view as a commodity, to be had for nothing. One of the examples that pushed me to say “F it!”, was a few months ago a major global software company based in the UK asked me to bid on:
• Two long shoot days of a Chicago conference capturing 20, thirty minute speakers with a 5 minute break between them.
• Edit a kick ass recap video of 4 minutes in length.
• Edit 24 videos of 20-30 minutes each. These would mainly be one long take, no slides, client said it would be “helpful” to have a camera on the audience just in case we need to cut away. Although these would be one long take, it still takes time to import, add titles, ID, render out.So…I figured it would be around $7000 but knowing how cheap everyone is nowadays, I came in at $5200. She responded that they go all over the world having these conferences and and never pay more than $3000 for the video portion. She asked if I would do it for that. Naturally I turned it down, seemed like 10 days of work.
I looked at all their videos around the world and US, and caught glimpses of the videographers she used. Seems like one static DSLR and another on a slider which ridiculously goes back and forth. The shooters looked college kid age. The work was “adequate”, “not bad”. When I enquired as to how I can get interviews in the hallway and other b-roll while I am suppose to be filming the speakers, she said that most videographers “bring an assistant”, meaning even less profit for me. If you PM me I will send you their site. I would be expected to shoot for the recap reel during my lunch break, or have my “assistant” man the camera of the speakers while I do the b-roll and hallway testimonials.
This is just one of many dozens of examples I could cite. She came in through a crowd sourcing site called Gig Salad. Young video people (and hobbyists), some who are fairly adept and techy, will bid lower and lower just to be busy or build a reel, so it’s teaching the video buying demographic that video may be had cheap. These lost bids, combined with the need to buy 4K cameras, plus many clients becoming slow paying and a few recent rip offs, propelled me to “just fade away”, like General McArthur. Working harder to make less, what kind of biz is that? My CPA and CFP said we have enough money to no longer work, so why bother? Your post is what I have been living with, especially since the last recession. And my bigger clients who used to be very profitable, they either started to do less video, do it in-house or want to pay a lot less. And as I have posted previously, the Fortune 100s of my client base have been outsourcing their accounts payable to Mumbai, and I then get paid in 90 days. Outside consulting firms come in and show them how they can save money by firing the accounting department and setting up their back office to India. I swear to God. Google it. First they did it to the IT departments, now the accounting department.
If you watch Better Call Saul, you’ll see him hire two film students from the local college. That became my competition for my “price sensitive” clients. A Berlin based company asked me last week to do 20, three minute walk through real estate videos for $250 each. How do they arrive at this figure? Although it is probably just 3 or 4 clips dissolved together, they are able to find video people who will do it for that, mainly by promising a quantity, which as we know never happens. I can PM you their info. Looks like someone with a Ronin or Movi. Let me leave you with this:
Recently got a call from a (old client) jewelry wholesaler who needed a series of six training videos to teach stores how to properly display Rolexes. I used to do all niters for this client at their jewelry stores, where we would shoot it high end, with make up artists, turntable (now on Craigslist if anyone wants to buy it) the works, big crew, extras. That was from 1995-2001. This call asked how “cheap” I could edit these, they would shoot them themselves on an iPhone. Just the hands demonstrating how to set up displays, using a tripod, and add VO. I didn’t want to get involved with something so unprofitable, so I turned it down. I helped them learn about Voice 123, posted the audition for free, and he got a great voice for the pilot for$200. I referred him to a great, inexpensive editor I know who did the 5 minute pilot for $400. So for $600 they got a utilitarian instructional video. I was bummed at how nice the iPhone video looked. I forgot to mention this client is a very close relative! He sent me the final and was gushing as to how great it was for only $600!!!!! I responded, “Now you understand why I just retired at 63?”
So in sum, if they look around hard enough and post on Thumbtack, Gig Master, Gig Salad, Craigslist, Staff Me Up, etc., younger clients who see video as “no big deal”, not voodoo science or alchemy, expect rock bottom prices. I know a local guy who recently retired from the Postal Service after 30 some years. He handled their HVAC work, but the last few years they let him make internal videos. Now with his great postal pension, he is able to do corporate videos in my area for practically nothing. I asked him about why he does it for almost nothing, he replied, “It’s fun!”
All the best and good luck!
Ned
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
Congratulations Todd! (Sorry for the delayed response, I’m in semi-retirement so I don’t look at the forums much anymore). You are a real survivor! I have learned a lot in our conversations. We in the biz tend to work in silos, so it’s refreshing to have bounced ideas and ask questions of each other.
I wish you many more successful years of fun and profitable projects!
Best,
Ned
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
Oh wow do I miss the business! Been retired about 4 weeks now and deleted my favorite bookmarks but decided to peek at my ole peeps on DVXuser and CC. Feel like an addict about to call his dealer. I miss Bob’s posts! It’s as if he was channelling the Chicago freelancer production scene. After all, that’s why I took early retirement: What he’s talking bout….
So Robert, the only thing I can say that’s different about cooking shows is that you often have to hire a pro food stylist because “reality sucks”, meaning, what comes out of the oven or kitchen the first time is not so visually appealing, so we often would have an identical dish being cooked under exact conditions and that would be the beauty shot. In sum, you have to hire a pro who your host likes, perhaps their assistant? Otherwise, you’d have to rely on whatever came out for the finished beauty shot, which often will suck.
Restaurant people (besides the owner) can be kinda flaky, so a hard schedule doesn’t work well with that crowd, although if your host is going to visit a local chef, he or she will be very cooperative, but otherwise, it’s hard to have our typical kind of schedule. If the folks in charge don’t know much about our biz, they may not know that we can’t just shoot the crowd if it’s for broadcast or web. I was shut down many times with the warning, “Many men here are not with their wives”, if you get my drift.
It’s easy to have two cameras running in the restaurant section but most restaurants in the back kitchen, it’s too small to have two cameras angles. I’d budget for one camera unless there are interviews where it’s cutting back and forth with the host and episodes’s chef, then you need two, and I wouldn’t go Red, I’d go documentary camera such as a C300 or FS7. After all, a cooking show is basically a documentary, right?
When dealing with restaurants for pilots or real shows, they don’t want you there during a busy period, so these things would be shot on Sunday mornings and the producer’s friends and relatives would fill out the crowd extras. And back when I was doing cooking shows, such as Dining Chicago, the back kitchen staff was not too keen on having their faces on camera, and with the new president, I bet it’s worse!
If I were to bid on something like this, and then they said that I had lost the bid to someone cheaper, it is very realistic nowadays here in Fly Over Country that it would be Bob’s scenario. Really. So don’t be down on Bob, it is the pool I was bidding against. Just got a call today about editing a sales training video they had shot on their iPhones. They sell used Rolexes for $30K. Yet they’re too cheap to hire a shooter. Although Bob may seem “over the top”, he speaks the truth. I don’t know about your market though, but I am glad to be out!
Good luck,
Ned
P.S. Sometime when I have time, I will post “Message from the Grave: A DP Tries To Retire”. Ain’t so easy! Busier now than when I was in the biz. Volunteering for worthy causes.
P.S.S. You Go Bob!! Miss ya
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
Greg wrote:
To Ned – Though you don’t feel in danger of being ripped off, people’s situations change quickly. What if your client went belly up, or became sick, or had new management. I always try to have enouh deposit so I can pay any of my expenses incurred for a project. This way I never owe my crew money that I don’t have.
Well…it appears now I am being ripped off! Since I responded to you I was contacted by two DPs, who are in the same boat and are owed more money than I. I don’t think the client is an unethical rip off artist, rather, I think they did bankroll very large clients who became extremely slow payers, so they have a cash flow crunch and now us vendors are attacking with pitchforks and torches. I have seen this rodeo before but the others, in their twenties, are indignant and want to take legal action as soon as it’s 90 days. Ahhh…the naiveté.
Little do these DPs in their 20s know that the bankruptcy lawyers are the scum of the scum. So, if the prod co is forced into bankruptcy protection because of this premature intense vendor pressure, before they can get their ARs in, The IRS get’s their share first, then comes the secured creditors such as Sony, Panasonic, the auto financing company, their landlord, etc., THEN the bankruptcy lawyers have barely legal techniques to make sure their legal bills are 95% of what’s left. My mom was a secretary to one when I was growing up, so I know the scumbagery. And as an adult DP I learned their ways. You can’t take some emails into Small Claims Court and expect to jump ahead of these guys. After all, they’re lawyers and know the ropes.
As some may know, I am easing into retirement and it does leave a bad taste in may mouth that one of my last few gigs is a no payer, but that’s also the risk of being self employed. Their CFO has sworn to me that I will get paid as soon as they get their money. To begin my New Me, that’s Ned 3.0, last week I deleted all my video bookmarks and moved up my hobbies. I visited today because I am getting a tire repaired. Nowadays I have all the time in the world with scattered volunteering hours. There was a post lately of a guy who is coming back from a serious illness and “wants to get back into the business”. Eeeesh…. This is now the wrong biz to try to make good money in. I will, when I have time, post what I learned lately. The short version is, over the last two weeks I met with some producers and several DPs with various model cameras. I was judging personality, honesty (and the two have nothing to do with each other) to arrange commission deals for shooting and/or producing, since I want OUT. I have high SEO so leads come in, might as well do something with them. I will, when I get a chance, tell you what I (already knew) learned and was confirmed: Good shooters and producers are now offering prices about one third to half less of what I quote , and that’s why I’m slow and lose bids. I never got the memo that we’re now half price! Many will throw the post in just to get the shooting part and vice versa, it depends on if they are at their core a shooter or editor. Whichever side of the coin they are better at, they will reduce the cost of the other. Ever notice that? My experience is that only the most narcissistic claim they are both a great shooter AND a great editor. So…perfect timing for me I guess to ease out. I no longer keep my phone by the shower door!
I’d say, as of 10AM, 80% of all my ARs are past 30 days. Besides this teetering client, which is just $850, the others are “friends”, nice clients or super large Fortune 100 companies. There’s only so much hassling you can do of your client before you’re considered a pest. My invoices at the large mega corps now go into The Black Hole, which I think I mentioned here. It’s a Mumbai back office that the large companies use so no one knows when your check will come, and they all keep it secret that they are doing that. My subdivision is dotted with former upper management accounting execs. I suppose that and AI is killing them, but making our payments slower:
So the results of my 50′ trip to my mailbox determine my mood for the rest of the day! I’ve maxed out my allowable nuisance calls whining about the status of my checks. You made the smart move Greg.
Later,
Mr. Miller
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
Timely topic Greg. My wife has been bugging me for money for the bills and I asked her, if I gave her the phone numbers and emails of all the late clients who presently owe me money, would she collect for me.
I don’t feel in danger of being ripped off but this being so late is making things miserable. So I’d say if they don’t have the remainder when the shoot is over, forget it. They can pressure their client for more upfront money by saying their local vendor needs it.
Good luck,
Ned
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
Thanks Mark. My wife is retiring from teaching special ed for 27 years in June so that got me thinking, I’m 63, how many good years do I have left? I’ve had an excellent run as far as DPing goes. I am looking at having to spend $12K-$17K for either a Sony FS7 or Canon C300 Mark II with a Canon 18-80 servo zoom just to be competitive, yet the clients won’t pay a dime more, in fact, they are getting so much cheaper it’s crazy. So… it has become a perfect storm of bad indicators and I feel now is the time to get out. From slow payers, lower rates as a DP, crowd sourcing, rich kids underbidding, having to buy new cameras, build a new website…there’s not enough big money in this occupation anymore. It’s easier to grow old in this biz if you are editing, but I can not imagine life sitting in front of a computer all day. Recipe for suicide.
The Holy Grail of video work in Chicago has always been to be the preferred person for the Fortune 100s such as Allstate, Boeing, Abbott, Kraft, etc. That’s how I made my base salary. But now these giant companies are the slowest of payers. So why bother? Many are now outsourcing their back office functions to India, so the clients have no idea where my check is and when I may be paid.
And I am constantly doing bids, they want me, but they all want me to come way down in price. What I consider my half day rate for shooting is now what the clients want to pay for a full day. My plan is to dial it way down, just work for existing clients, and do freebie videos for small charities. There seems to be no true formula for retiring in this biz, people just fade away. I have trained many a young person in the art of shooting, some became my competitors, but I would not recommend it as a career path now unless they are from, or married into, wealth. I don’t see it as a middle class existence anymore. Do you?
P.S. I am on the list as a volunteer diver for the Shedd Aquarium! Need to get some more hours of dive time, it’s my idea of retirement. I plan to stay very busy, I just don’t want to compete for chump change and then fight to get my check within 90 days!
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
Kylee wrote: It’s interesting you dismiss everything I say, include job applicants, as though that doesn’t also require a significant time investment of rewriting a cover letter, reshaping a resume, and a dog-and-pony show of its own.
I didn’t mean to sound dismissive but I think HR is an entirely different animal. Young people like my daughter are actually applying to a faceless computer. Meaningless. If they do get an interview the interviewers may not give a response due to having dozens of applicants and as a “committee” may not feel the responsibility. Networking is Everything! But if you’re a marketing exec and ask a self employed vendor like me, to blow half a day, and oh yeah, get free advice, you do need to send a Thank You at least. At minimum an email saying, Thanks but No Thanks. I notice that most of the major papers still have advice columnists.As a sidenote, a couple of weeks ago I shot and edited twenty social media videos on exactly this topic for the job hunting guru Liz Ryan, who is LinkedIn’s most liked blogger and she needed to promote her book. Her take away was: Never Send Your Resume Into a Computer! Ever! I got her to autograph and write that in the book for my daughter. I would have zero expectation of HR getting back to me, but someone who asked me to polish my shoes, get a haircut and drive round trip two hours? Yes.
Yeah Bob, I had an epiphany yesterday and the phrase “My budget stinks!” resonated in that, I believe it’s the economy plus the decline of using video for B2B is less. Just opened my Fidelity statement yesterday for January and I made thousands more in the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index, due to the Trump Effect, than I did as profit (not gross) on shooting and editing. I’m no financial wizard, just lucky and slow! So my insight now is that it is the economy sucks, although the stock market is hot. There’s not the budgets for outside video as there used to be. I talk with a lot of people and anyone who says it’s Unicorns & Rainbows, I don’t believe them, unless they have lucked into some great clients.
I too am getting lots of requests, mainly due to my high SEO, but invariably when we start to communicate back and forth about costs, they don’t “have the budget”. An inquiry is irrelevant to profit, in that there has to be a profitable job that comes from it and God knows the internet brings in mainly tire kickers. I have to cover my butt because the description of the parameters of the projects are so vague, it’s hard to tell if it will be a one or four camera shoot, a one or two day shoot, a one or three day edit, so I tend to bid high to CYA so I don’t lose money, which occasionally happens. If I was willing to lower my prices I could accept all of them, but why would I want to do that? Now I’m basically competing against bachelor renters with roommates, who will work for peanuts, and unfortunately for us old folks, they aren’t “half bad” and are usually half my price. My bad for living on a golf course and buying two new cars last year.
But I have never seen it like this where people will actually ask you to come in for a meeting, ask you to work up prices, and then never respond. Inexplicable to me but society is now so different, although to Kylee this seems normal because she didn’t experience the previous times. On Netflix, Season 3 of Black Mirror, watch “Nosedive”, to me that sums up that generation. That’s what has happened. When I was in the two meetings I mentioned yesterday, I got the vibe they were getting a free consultation, as in: “If you keep half the frame open for text, how would you compensate for vertical Japanese text yet have enough room for Arabic?” “If we shoot in the warehouse here, how can you hang seamless paper with these pipes sticking out?” You get my point. Twenty years ago that would have been a $200 consult.
Another epiphany yesterday was my view of the marketing function in corporations and as how it relates to contracting video. My three legged stool was always Non-Fiction TV shows, Documentaries and Corporate Videos. The common wisdom for decades was: Hit up the B2B marketing departments because they are the ones who LOVE to use video, they have the money, they have crush deadlines so will pay more. These are the gregarious party animals of a company, the golfers, the Good Ole Boys, Jocks and Homecoming Queens, they love swag and (used to) love the “glamour” of video and celebrity endorsements, and schmoozing in the bar after work. These are the ones who have to spend their entire budget by the end of their FY or their budget isn’t approved for the next FY. This was my bread and butter and put two kids through college (of course they had to do 5 years each out-of-state, but that’s another story). So here’s my epiphany:
As I saw when I did the documentary style marketing video shoot M&T in a special ed school for a (very successful) software company, the use of video has lost its sheen as a sales tool. In other words: No Big Deal. No need for pros to come in. They do 95% of the videos themselves! I was only called in as a DP because the audio was complex and I had to do cinema verite of kids who are all over, and doc is my forte. Yesterday they called asking how to import AVCHD into FCP7. An indicator that even the post process is now seen as DIY. They are younger, meaning they grew up with video and computers so they don’t see the need to pay big bucks for an outsider, unless it’s something complex. Thankfully they don’t know how to light or do good audio because that has to be taught, but any techy can make it through a camera manual. A lot of my shooting is CEO level because they don’t want anything to screw up, so they’re forced to bring someone like me in, but I don’t get the post on that type of gig. Besides the larger TV shows, the CEO type shoots are the only times I now get my higher day rate that is comparable to (inflation adjusted) shooting rates of the 80s, 90s and pre-Crash 2000s.
The two prospects I shamed yesterday for never getting back, perhaps their budgets are cut not only because the economy hasn’t been growing but the money earmarked for video is less a proportion than before? In other words, in the B2B realm, video ain’t no big deal anymore, it’s something to do yourself or get as cheaply as possible, hence the Thumbtack type sites. Meaning, hire the young kids because they will definitely be cheaper. When I am filming at giant trade shows and I take a break to walk the aisles (looking for freebies and food), I always study the booth videos to spot trends. I now see a trend towards videos which are not dependent on audio (due to noise and foreigners) they’re text heavy, possibly for the purpose of re-editing for foreign languages and no one can hear in a noisy trade show. But very disconcerting is… these videos, which often look great, are made up of 100% good and cheap stock from places like iStock, Pond5, etc. My theory is the in-house graphics people, who are very familiar with Premiere, have stepped into that function, easily. One of my best clients is a hospital and if you are unfortunate enough to be in one lately, digital signage is now a big thing. I discovered it is the responsibility of the graphics people, using Premiere, and these people often ask me for ProRes to re-cut my footage for their signage. So I definitely see, what used to have to be farmed out, is now in-house, and that really hurts my share of the communications pie.
Judging by the inquiries I get the B2C sector is hot to use short, cheap as possible, quantity is everything, videos, but there’s no money in it for someone like myself. I get emails and calls wanting to do one step above a blogger quality so they can pepper them all over social media, and naturally they want these around $50 a video.
As to your comment about decks, well…lots of TV clients actually still prefer their old workflow, not just for speed and archiving, but confidentiality. I shot a new crime series (had to have an armed off duty cop because it was a door knock of a murderer), and they shipped in two very heavy, old, battle axes: Panasonic HDX900s. They had to hire two of us old guys because the younger shooters would not know them and could not do hand held all day with a beast like this without a day or two of practice. The reason they wanted tape was two fold: No time for transfers and they did not want the DPs to maintain a safety copy due to litigation paranoia. Same with Dr. Phil and that ilk. Often there’s a messenger waiting for the last shot to race to the airport. I shot the NFL Draft in Chicago a couple of years ago and a team wanted Sony XDCam. When I watched the scrum around Brady at the end of the Super Bowl, there were many large ENG cameras, such as XDCam and P2. So there still are companies with a closed loop post workflow that cringe when different codecs and formats are brought in because they are editing under severe deadlines with a gun to their heads. At least that’s how it has been explained to me.
So I am just a few months from retiring! Then I will only do freebie fund raising videos for local charities, where I can see the benefit of my contribution. I am so disgusted with these chicken feed budgets, might as well work on doing the things I never had time for. I’m passing the leads onto young shooters I know for wine and theatre tickets, and I have stopped all marketing. The type of money to be made nowadays, compared to “The Good Old Days” is nothing, so I am preparing my new chapter!
Well, that’s my .02¢ observations.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com -
due to the overall devaluing of people in general…
Well, that says it all. Couldn’t have said it better myself. There is a difference between the HR department not getting back to an applicant versus a prospect asking a vendor to take half their day, either morning or afternoon, get gussied up, drive in, do their dog ‘n pony show and pitch, then drive home and work an hour or more to send in a proposal, and then not respond when they follow up. You asked them to donate to you half of a work day to help you figure out which way to go with an upcoming video project, right? To me, it’s simply a matter of manners. And it does only take 10 seconds to respond. And it is generational. If I was to do a spreadsheet on this I’d say the below 31 or 32 crowd, give or take a year or so, are the ones who feel no guilt not getting back after asking you for half a day and picking your mind for free.
So…after I posted this around 10AM today I sent an acerbic, jocular email to one of the above mentioned people that said, “Was it something I said?”, realizing full well I would never work with her. That was her tipping point and she wrote back:
“It was great meeting you but after reviewing your pricing I am looking for more affordable solutions. My budget stinks!”
Now, was that so hard? Couldn’t she have written that eight weeks and several emails of mine ago? Maybe she wanted to avoid delivering bad news? Who knows. I referred her to Thumbtack.com My cheapest rate was above her maximum.
Being an old timer I have watched this decline in manners, where people in our biz will request something of others, in our case it’s holding out the carrot of possible work, ask us for our time (and often expertise with free consulting) and then feel no compunction to have the basic social courtesy of sending a reply to their inquiry. I can see my 29 and 30 year old not responding, but not my brother or sister.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com