Marek Bilski
Forum Replies Created
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We recently upgraded our equipment with the latest camera firmware.
As it turns out, the issues users experienced in the past with SDHC memory,(not all mind you) with the prior firmware (1.20 & 1.10) appear to be solely caused by Sony’s firmware limitations. The previous firmware obviously was causing instability in recording, and adding to that, SDHC manufacturers were also changing their firmware and manufacturing processes which were not helpful at all. So it was really an uphill task for memory manufacturers to stabilize the incompatibility of Sony’s firmware and create a memory card to be compatible with Sony’s camera.
I’m sure Sony was sitting on the fence and waiting to see if companies like MxM were going to fall over or have enough complaints, blaming them for problems and waiting for public support to switch back to Sony’s SxS memory. But fortunately, as it turned out, there was enough support, and memory cards on the market working flawlessly for Sony to take notice. In the end they had no choice but to join the SDHC memory market with their own version of an adapter, but they had to improve and stabilize the firmware.
So what are the preliminary results from the newest firmware?
We’ve tested all memory cards which previously had issues with the older firmware and guess what? Over 20 different brands of memory cards are now working. We even tested the cheapest generic Chinese brands which work to a certain extent but display a general lack of durability after about 10mins of recording…
There are no more media errors, suddenly they have mysteriously disappeared! You can record with the red light indicator still on, without corrupting media…the lag between start and stop has improved and the best part, even on a certain class 4 & 6, you can fully over crank to infinity!
Another bonus intended or not – now you can switch slots manually during recording, just by pressing the slot selector button, which with the previous firmware, you could not do this. I don’t know whether this is a bug or not…has anyone tried this yet???
As well, we did 6 hours of full over cranking @ 60 fps on a certain class of memory card…not that I would do this all the time…
The point is, with the release of the latest firmware for EX series, the dependency on SxS memory cards has become less and less justifiable…Why would anyone use an SxS card when you have the choices of memory cards at a fraction of the cost, which perform exactly the same as SxS, except have a slower download to PC….then again I may be wrong…who knows.
You can buy these days a very decent combo with a 16GB class 10 for under $90.
Obviously, durability and reliability of the new crop of memory cards will be determined over time.
MxM Express
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It is a very rare occasion where a SanDisk will not be recognized by an adapter. In your case, receiving the message “Cannot format” and then on the PC “Disk is write protected” means is that SanDisk is not mating correctly. Unfortunately, all memory cards are not built equally and on the rare occasion a SDHC socket contacts on the adapter might not mate correctly with particular brand. We test with various brands of SDHC cards and do quality control before all shipments, but sometimes we may miss a brand of SDHC in testing and in these circumstances this can happen and this is the result of mis-mating. You’ll find that this adapter will mate perfectly with another SDHC card. Sometimes having four (4) or five (5) different brands of memory cards in the one adapter can also cause this type of error (mis-mating).
It is very unfortunately that you’ve received an adapter which doesn’t work with SanDisk.
My immediate suggestion is to please replace the adapter with a new one, as that will fix your problem.MxM Express
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In regards to the “New” Sandisk rebatched Ultra II class 4 memory cards, well, SanDisk have changed the packaging and renamed them. eg., SanDisk Extreme class 10 used to be called SanDisk Extreme III. They might have changed their firmware as well…possibly slightly to accommodate sustained HD recording at higher bits.
Ultra II (Ultra now) will read at 20 MB/s and write at roughly around 12 MB/s so they are fast enough to record with. But speed isn’t everything.
Unlike Transcend cards, the SanDisk Ultra class 4 cards, don’t produce any media errors during recording when testing, what I have been reported is, they fail in the off camera workflow, which I can’t replicate or precisely put my finger on.
But as Will said, if you are going to treat it carefully and with care, in relation to workflow eg., leave the SD card in the adapter, use an USB reader to ingest the footage to your PC or laptop…and afterwards, correctly dismount it from the computer, you should be ok, even with SanDisk Ultra. This is not gospel but just pure advice, because everyone works their own way, and this is where is gets really tricky working out any issues users have with SDHC cards. However, you should know, they are not a professional grade memory card so they won’t be as robust and durable as SanDisk Extreme class 10, RAW or ATP ProMax… ..
I just like to comment in regards to Transcend 16GB…Today I received a Transcend 16GB memory card with a red stripe on it (I bought exactly the same memory card 12mths ago which still works without any issue)…The sample today came from a UK client who had issues with media errors. I conducted tests and compared it to my original card, and not only did I get media errors on all different brands of adapters with different chipsets but as well, this particular card was far slower in write than my existing card. The packaging was different (cheaper looking)…and the memory’s casing of the card was rather substandard compared to my original one.
As well, I was quite disappointed the way Transcend have lowered the write time on it, obviously to accommodate the class 10 arrival.MxM Express
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Hi Dean,
Regarding the formatting of your Extreme SanDisk 32GB class 10, you will find that the Kensington 7-1 adapter may have outlasted its use as it is using an IC controller which was manufactured way before 32GB memory cards were released. So, the chances of this particular controller working with your SDHC, being the latest, is going to be not highly probable… I can’t comment in regards to other 32GB memory cards, as I don’t know if any Kensington 7-1 adapters are in use with them, off hand.
Every manufacturer of memory cards and every brand of memory cards use different memory IC controllers and firmware, so to get an adapter to recognise a memory card on EX1/EX3 in regards to formatting is a daunting task because there are so many ways that the adapter can be manufactured (in regards to USB 2.0 bus lane choices).
With MxM adapters, I can’t speak for any other brands…but the SanDisk Extreme example 32GB class 10 will not do consequetive formatting on EX1/EX3. In order to do consecutive formatting you have to eject the adapter and re-insert it and it will format. Transcend 32GB for example on every 3rd consecutive format with show a media error, where you have to re-insert the adapter with memory card and then you can continue with the formatting.
There is no such issues with 16GB (any brand) at all because they will format consecutively.
Also, formatting behaviour will be slightly different between slot A and B…
Additionally, formatting behaviour and not being able to format at all… there are 2 main reasons for this which are:
(1) the SDHC is not aligned in the adapter socket; and
(2) in the majority of cases, the firmware and IC controller of the memory card is not compatible with EX1/EX3 cameras.
ATP 32GB memory is different in this regards because it will format on EX1/EX3 consecutively in the same way as any 16GB memory card, but only because we used the manufacturer’s knowledge to tweak the firmware for the EX1/EX3 camera to be able to do this, regardless which slot (A or B) it is in.
In my view, it sounds like you need a new adapter because the SanDisk Extreme 32GB class 10 is a very good memory card, so upgraded IC controller may solve your problem.MxM Express
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Hi Radim,
In relation to Transcend and MxR, which version of MxR do you have? Is it the newer or older one?
With Transcend – a few days ago…I started re-testing Transcend 16GB (with the red stripe) class 6 and did the unthinkable…and stopped and started recording with the red light still on, (I did this around 20 times)…to see if I could produce a media error. Believe it or not, it didn’t happen and all clips are playing fine in the clip browser and I then did the same test with SanDisk 16GB class 6 HD version and believe it or not, the same thing. It didn’t happen again. I’ll continue this process over the next few days to see if I can create a media error. Mind you, the environment is pretty cool with air con so temperature and humidity is not extreme. In the next test, I’ll film in high humidity and 35 – 40 degrees temperature to see if this makes a difference.
In regards to the difference in the class level of your SDHC memory card, class 10 or 6, with class 10 – you should be able to get faster write speed (average between 16 – 18 MB/s) whereas class 6 in Transcend – it may give you only 11.5 MB/s write speed.
SanDisk Extreme class 10 will give you on average 19 MB/s in write. So in general class 10 should be faster.On EX1/EX3, the faster write times can improve over cranking eg SanDisk Extreme class 10 can achieve 52 fps sustained…which is probably the limit for EX1/EX3 USB 2.0 interface.
On EX1R, that interface is improved and you can achieve full over cranking with a SDHC memory card which writes at around 12 MB/s…so as you can see, speed is not everything…eg. I’ve recently been testing a new company’s class 10 memory card, where originally the sample card sent, would not work with the new MxM or Hoodman and the older MxM, however, the company wants the memory card to work, so they sent me a sample of the same card with different firmware. The results were that the camera was able to format and record to it and it is a class 10 memory card which gives writing at 17.6 MB/s.. but the problem we are having is media errors… and this class 10 card (sample), it is not able to over crank at all! But they will keep sending me new samples with new firmware, until they get it right.
So, what you are looking at is, the firmware which needs to be rock solid to start with. The instability of firmware will contribute to the frequency of media errors.
I hope this helps or sheds some light on your situation.MxM Express
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Absolutely Craig….
Also, in relation to corrupt media with SanDisk and Transcend, not all customers are divulging their workflow of their adapter and memory card. We had 1 case where the customer had returned a SanDisk 16GB class 4 not working and when I did a test check on it, this memory card contained jpeg files, tif files, gif files and had been used on Canon 450 DSLR…so in order for me to get this memory card working again, I had to reformat it a few times on a PC afterwhich I could use it again on the EX1 without any issues, whereas previously the same memory card would show up “media error”. There are a lot of customers who managed to buy very cheap Transcend and SanDisk, even from reputable companies which were fake, believing that they were original which obviously will cause huge problems because the firmware is really flakey.
2 reasons for media errors…
1. the memory card’s firmware failure; and
2. internal components on the memory card not being durable enough.
So far, I have done 4,503 hours of recording on EX1 with various memory cards without a single card failure. It is not a question of winning an argument or telling one off..An interesting note, in late June ’09, Sony headquarters in Japan purchased MxM with SanDisk and USB adapter. At the time I thought “oh yeah, they will do something with the new model… as in disable it” as it turned out, they improved it as mentioned earlier.MxM Express
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Hi Michael, re “Sony made the EX cameras specifically to use their S x S cards”, I disagree..the EX1/EX3 and the more recent EX1R, all are designed to work with SxS media however, they have a built in USB 2.0 interface. If Sony did not want anyone to use anything but SxS Pro media, they would not release equipment with USB 2.0 interface available, but only PCI-E. Sony’s own external recorder is USB 2.0 interface. Additionally, by having reasonably priced adapters to work with SDHC on the market, this was helping Sony sell more cameras and as well benefited you guys by having far cheaper SxS memory cards as time went by…The new EX1R has actually had it’s USB 2.0 interface improved by Sony and we are achieving results on par with the SxS. The older SxS was built on SLC platform whereas the newest SxS memory cards are built on a MLC platform which is the same platform as SDHC memory cards. SxS memory cards are prone to media errors as well. The fundamental problems is the consumer’s choice of memory card because not all memory cards are built equally. I do own a few SxS memory cards, but I never have had to use them because the adapters and SDHC cards are working flawlessly and the workflow is far easier to manage than SxS workflow. Yes, it takes longer to download the data to your PC but this is the only drawback…
MxM Express
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Hi Ed, I can’t comment on how hot your MxR is getting, but all electronic equipment will produce heat,including Sony’s SxS memory card. In our extensive tests, SxS memory cards will get warm to touch and so will MxM and so will other adapters we have tested. Heat dispersal will vary depending also upon the memory used. I’ve conducted marathon sessions of 48 hours non stop recording…with MxM using Hoodman Raw, ATP and SanDisk with a variation of 16GB and 32GB memory cards and all I was doing was formatting the cards on the camera when they were full. They were switching from Slot A to B without any issues and they were in the camera for that period and there was no media error, issues with recording, the files were fine. Yes they were warm but they were not hot…Regarding SanDisk, we have a database of clients who have been happy with SanDisk and have been using it for almost a year now with the original MxR and now with MxM and without any issues.
On our website we have recently added a new tab called Tested working media which compiles data which might be of assistance to you.MxM Express
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Hi Craig, thanks for your kind words. As you know I have not been very active on forums. We at MxM put a lot of energy into the development of the MxM card. So the knowledge we have acquired over the past few months is staggering. Just to summarise, we’ve done 3,500 hours of recording on 16GB and 32GB memory cards. We tested and are still testing memory cards and it comes to the point that consumers have to settle for something that is reliable and reasonably priced rather than to go for cheap and uncertain. I will be slowly releasing information to the public through here if anyone is interested.
To start with, in regards to over cranking, the behaviour of Slot A to B on the camera is different to the point that the difference is roughly 4 to 5 fps. eg. If you use Slot B to over crank, you might get max 50 fps and if you use the same card with the same memory in Slot A you’ll get 54 fps. Obviously not all cameras are made equal so in some batches it might be reversed.
We’ve done a lot of testing on Silicone Power 32GB and it appears to work very well, but even they keep changing their firmware, but it works and the sample card I have works very well, but I can’t guarantee the stock in the shop will be the same unfortunately.
In regards to ATP ProMax, we first started testing on our older cards in April, and the 16GB works fantastically to the point that one of our customers took it to the Himalayans and filmed in minus zero temperatures and got great footage with no issues. That’s the reason we then started to develop the MxM card with it so it could work with 32GB as the old chipset was not very stable back then but 32GB now with the new MxM card is equally reliable as I’ve never lost any footage on ATP ProMax, nor have my customers.
Finally not to forget or overlook the fact that we also test Hoodman’s memory cards extensively with our adapters and they are manufactured to the highest standard.
We really took time and spent a lot of effort in working out the relationship between Sony’s camera | our MxM adapter and memory cards and I must say we are almost 99% there…MxM
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Hi, MxM here, I’d like to clarify Craig’s comment about MxR being the same as MxM – just want to let you know that MxM is absolutely NOT the same as MxR… We use far superior technology and we only innitally were the same, but over the past several months we have developed new technology which permits a higher array of recognition of memory cards and also allows a faster SDHC memory card which potentially is capable of over cranking up to 60fps. I ran a test on SanDisk Extreme class 10 32GB memory card and was able to get 6 minutes of 54fps of overcranking. So the faster memory we can access the more overcranking we can achieve. There is also another company who is introducing SDHC memory cards at 300X speed which can translate to hopefully to about 25MB/s in writing so I’ll be interested to see what overcranking is achievable with this.
I hope to be able to continue to contribute and be more than happy to clarify any issues users may be enquiring about on this forum.MxM