Jeff Regan
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That’s great John. I’d love to hear what Panasonic’s diagnosis is. I thought the exterior test clip with the 300 looked good(as well as can be ascertained by a highly compressed file on the net).
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
Yes, all this is subjective. Different projects/types of productions require different looks. News and sports require 60i or 60p temporal resolution, very sharp, good saturation, neutral color balance for the most part.
Docs, commercials, shorts, corporate, features often have lower frame rates, reduced detail, stylized color, shallow depth of field when possible.
The OP started a thread stating that he needed “help” with a camera that he didn’t like the look of. Rather than take any suggestions on camera setup, and for some reason couldn’t tell the difference between different downloaded scene files, he chose a different brand camera that he liked the out of the box look better. Nothing wrong with that, it’s his hard earned dollars. Most camera people don’t know, don’t want to know how to be camera engineers.
However, a high-end DP can communicate to their DIT how they want the image to look in terms that a DIT can understand.
Bottom line is the HPX300 is capable of looking like whatever the client, DP/owner wants. One hour with a DIT/engineer could have transformed the 300 into the wanted look and the OP would have had the advantage of the best resolution due to full raster CMOS sensors vs. pixel shifted CCD’s, best ergonomics, viewfinder, color and codec options available at the price point. That doesn’t mean that the camera wouldn’t have some disadvantages(CMOS artifacts) over the other brand/s. No perfect cameras exist.
There are some great books written for a few Panasonic cameras by Robert Goodman-“Goodman Guide”(Varicam, HDX900) and Barry Green(HVX200, 200A, HPX170) that offer a good understanding of what each menu item does in terms that are understandable by non-engineers.
I happen to believe that a DP should know what his or her camera is capable of, even if it’s just providing a neutral setup that can be manipulated in post. Obviously, news production doesn’t allow the time for this, so an in-camera look is essential. Many DP’s want to “bake in” the look on-set, but that doesn’t mean images aren’t tweaked in post. All approaches are valid–as long as the client is happy!
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
Agreed. This is all subjective. The JVC clip was 1080/60i, so the detail level is appropriate for the high temporal resolution. I avoid 60i as much as possible, but I have clients that request it from time to time, ditto 720/60P. Both have that “live” look that screams video.
The great thing is that most digital HD cameras can be made to look whichever way is preferred for the style of shoot on a given day.
At Varicamp I learned that choosing a gamma curve is akin to choosing a film stock, selected on the basis of the look and style. The same can be said of resolution, frame rate, detail level, matrix settings, etc.
I find that 720P is kinder to talent vs. 1080i or P, as far as not showing as much skin flaws, ditto detail level. Too much detail is very unflattering to talent.
If it were up to me, I’d rather shoot with detail off on higher end HD cameras. It is redundant, just as 35mm motion picture cameras don’t depend on artificial enhancement due to real resolution.
As a rental facility, I can’t turn off the detail unless requested.
Anyway, it’s cool that these camera offer so many image options, even if many don’t know how to use them.Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
John,
I’m glad you are happy with the look of the JVC camera. Here’s what I see on the latest interior test:
A very sharp, over enhanced, videoish image–not filmic at all.
Every light to dark transition and highlight has color fringing from that lousy Canon lens. The low to high frequency transitions that don’t have color fringing(chromatic aberration) have detail circuit ringing and overshoot with thick black edges.
I’m sure this is the preferred look for news, but it is as far from filmic as I can imagine.
Having said that, the camera looked clean, I didn’t see obvious noise, color looked good.
Just not my cup of tea. I wish you would have reported on tweaks to detail circuit, gamma, chroma, black level and matrix that I recommended for the HPX300, which looked nice on the exterior test, if a bit videoish/overly sharp.
I’m guessing you’re one of those camera people that just wants to turn on the camera and shoot vs. developing scene files for different styles of shooting. Nothing wrong with that, you’re just not getting the most out of the capabilities of whatever camera you end up choosing.
God, that lens is pitiful. Really horrid. JVC needs a CAC type of circuit badly if they’re going to put that junk glass on their cameras.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
Defective camera is most likely. Standard def. DV25? What a waste of an HPX2000!
I received the December issue of ICG magazine today. It has a very informal review by two indie filmmakers of the HPX300, EX3, GY-HM700 and Canon 5D Mark II. They didn’t get into codec quality.
They liked the ergonomics of the HPX300 and viewfinder best of the cameras. Said it had good resolution and latitude, refined color space, but not as good in low light as the other cameras.
EX3 had poor ergonomics, didn’t like the viewfinder, low light very good, sensor clean and sharp, good color, fairly good latitude. Not crazy about the lens. Image wise very good camera.
GY-HM700 they stated that they struggled to find a lot of positives about. It had the most controlled skew, which makes sense, being a CCD camera, not CMOS. Lens is mediocre low-end model with lots of breathing and barrel distortion. Low light was noisy, latitude mediocre.
5D Mark II had very shallow DOF, good and bad. 30P a problem, if looking for 24P film look. Bad audio, ergonomics, monitoring. Image skew, resolution good, latitude fair, aliasing on vertical and horizontal lines, best camera for low light.
Just interesting to see a real world comparison of these inexpensive cameras, albeit not very technical.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
In the rental business, if a client is spending the money on Zeiss Super Speeds, edge to edge focus is important. I don’t want the adapter to add any more softness than the ground glass already does, but I understand your perspective.
Yes, the spinning ground glass adapters offer more flexibility in closing down the iris, this is why Letus built the Ultimate a year and a half ago. Now there’s the M2E, as you pont out, and the SG Pro.
The advantage of any of the Letus adapter models is that they can be used with the 1/3″, 1/2″ and 2/3″ Letus relay lenses, unlike other brands.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
Phil,
I don’t think saturated colorimetry and sharpness are mutually exclusive. The HD news and sports look that you and Dan referenced, or Discovery 1080/60i look is more likely due to detail circuit settings and frame rate, plus possibly lower saturation, higher gamma and blacks.
I prefer lower detail levels, less contrasty images(although that is often changed in post). The 60p or 60i frame rates, combined with lots of use of edge enhancement(which I believe has little place on an HD camera) is what many viewers and producers think of HD as being, vs. the more subtle, organic film look, much of which is also affected by depth of field and lighting.
I have some clients who want 60i, 60p or 30p, none of which is a filmic look.
Sony cameras from way back had too much enhancement in the blacks. They have improved this over the years, especially with HD cameras, but I like Panasonic’s detail settings better–although, like colorimetry, that can be changed to a large extent, depending on the menu items available in the camera.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
Every network has different standards/specs. 24P should not be a problem as long as your deliverables are either 720/60P or 108060i.
You might be consider lowering your hard clip closer to 100 IRE vs. 109 IRE. Check chroma saturation on a vectorscope, you don’t want to be outside of the boxes.
I had an issue with a cable network last year that wanted everything to be shot 4:3 safe, as well as graphics. That is lame, but an example of what can happen dealing with networks. They also wanted D5 or HDCAM SR tapes for submissions.
It really comes down to getting the specs for each network, as Shane told you.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
I agree Dan. I think most DP’s would agree that Panasonic is the standard bearer for colorimetry, good skin tones, and great tonality with the higher end cameras that have 14-bit A-D’s.
Whether an HVX200 or an original Varicam, this is what Panasonic is known for. I am continually blown away from the look of our new HPX2700 P2 Varicam, especially with Intra. We’re getting one more stop of usable latitude due to lower noise with Intra and the camera has 10-11 stops of latitude with Film-Rec 600. But it’s the color that clients comment on most. It’s funny how many clients look at the monitor for the first time at the start of a shoot day and say, “Wow!”
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com -
That’s right Dan, I use the same optimized achromat on HVX200, 200A, HPX170 and EX1. The rings are separate, so the achromat just stays on our Ultimates unless I’m using them with our B4 Pro 2/3″ relay lens.
I always check every camera/Ultimate rig on a resolution chart wide open for camera and taking lens for good edge to edge focus. I have found some 200’s with more CA than others, before putting a 35mm DOF adapter on and I’ve seen some edge to edge issues with 200A’s and a 170, again without the 35mm adapter, so there are differences in tolerances in the “Leica” built-in lenses. When they are good, they are completely free of CA and have great edge to edge–better than most 2/3″ HD ENG zoom lenses. I actually think Panasonic has been using a CAC circuit on these little cameras, I’m amazed at how little CA most of them have.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com