[Jason Freets]

And the crickets rejoice!!!

*cricket*

*cricket*

*cricket* *cricket*

*cricket*
*cricket*

*cricket* *cricket*

=-D

[Jason Freets]

Forgot to add:

My version of Color Finesse 3 is Version 3.0 under Windows.

So, I’m going to go to Synthetic Aperture’s website and see if I can update my Plug-In to whatever the latest version is.

I’ll post back with my results once I get that together.

That’s a great suggestion!

[Jason Freets]

Very good question:

“Which version of Color Finesse are you running? There was a bug fixed in version 3.0.5 on Windows which could account for this. The current version for download is 3.0.8. Adobe CC 12.2 includes Color Finesse 3.0.10. My tests with the color bars you provided display everything as expected on both Windows and Mac.”

This is very telling! You also are implying my colorbars are correct, which is what I also believed!

“The bars you posted are set up as 75% saturation, encoded into RGB in the range 16-235 (thinking of them as 8-bit). Because they are RGB, they can’t encode the I and Q patches (the purplish/bluish patches in the lower left).”

Correct! Though I use this for calibration, I never knew this “they can’t encode the I and Q patches (the purplish/bluish patches in the lower left)” Very interesting. I’ll have to read up a bit more on this 🙂

“You can tell that they are at 75% saturation because the color bars do not ever reach 255 in any color channel. They should max out at 180 for 75% encoded 16-235. You can tell that they are 16-235 because the black bars are at a value of 16 (not 0).”

Yes, I agree! Of course *saying with a sense of humor*, I can’t tell what my colorbars are with these colorbars since I’m at the point right now where I don’t trust my After Effect scopes! 🙂

“If they were encoded 0-255, the color bars would have the color channels maxing out at 191 and the black bars would be at 0. But then you’d lose the “blacker-than-black” portion of the PLUGE.” Right! I’d have different colorbars for Rec 709. But, I’m trying to work in Rec 601 which as you rightly noted is why my colorbars are 75% saturation. You know your calibration stuff well!

“In 98.3% of the cases, you want to leave the Color Finesse preference set to 0-255, and the “Blacks are at 7.5%” preference unchecked, and use 0-255 bars. The preferences are there for the other 1.7% of cases, which is compatibility with editing systems that are mostly long dead.”

I’ve tried it all. I’m paying careful attention to my setup…my colorspace…my setting in Color Finesse 3. It’s just off! However, that said, I DO expect Color Finesse 3 to properly adjust the scopes if I specify 16-235 with a 7.5 setup (even if it’s only used as the 1.7%). Still have such things as VHS videos people like to important…or other SD sources. My point is, After Effects should work for me too. Right now, it’s just not.

I’ll continue to investigate!

[Jason Freets]

Thanks Todd! I really do appreciate that! Let me know when you hear back from them!

Meanwhile, I’ll continue to investigate! 🙂

[Jason Freets]

Hello Dave,

You wrote, “Well, I dealt with a similar situation trying to import the SMPTE bars from Final Cut Pro into AE, and they didn’t work, either. They were fine in FCP, but goofy in AE.”

This is telling! So you have seen this issue too in AE!

“If you have a camera that can record bars, then you can set them up so they’re right, and as long as the photographer knows what’s what, the subsequent footage will be right, too”

Well that’s the whole problem. What are you interpreting as ‘right’? To me, ‘right’ is the colorbars that I am using which were generated via Sony Vegas Pro (which I find to work well for a lot of things). When comparing analog and digital….digital will always be spot on to analog. Therefore, you make adjustments for the analog to match those in digital.

In my case, my digital colorbars should be EXACTLY correct in my scopes in After Effects, but they are not. This is where I am having a fit and have become frustrated.

Dave, we are like friends 🙂 But, I strongly disagree with this, “But setting up on bars from a different application? That’s a crap shoot.”

No, one CORRECT colorbar should be exactly the same in all applications. Remember Lord of The Rings…”One ring to rule them all”. That’s how it is with colorbars. One colorbar to rule all the video studio applications: one colorbar should work exactly the same in After Effects, Adobe Primier Pro, Song Vegas Pro, and others. Again, as long as my one colorbar is correct.

Like I said, these colorbars are working in all my other video applications EXCEPT for After Effects….which is why I’m pulling my hair 😉

Again, thanks for your help on this too! Always greatly appreciated!

[Jason Freets]

Jim, you wrote:

“…Video Level Coding to 0 – 255 instead of 16 – 235….”

I was referring to a Preference > Video System in Color Finesse. You show it in your second image.

I still can’t find for certain any reference about this, but it makes sense that 16-235 would change whatever video that is handled by Finesse.”

As you wish:

Preferences with 0 to 255

Here is the resulting Luma scope:

Resulting Scope when at 0 to 255

Still wrong!

You said, “Additional – the color bars generated inside of FCP are only absolutely accurate inside FCP (assuming that they are generated correctly.) So the idea is that “whatever was created on this system looked good with everything set to those color bars.” When you move the material out of FCP, you would then adjust whatever environment you were in so that the bars are correct.”

Correct for the most part. Yes, the idea is I should adjust my environment to those color bars. And that is exactly what I am doing! The big exception, is that I can’t seem to get my environment to like the color bars no matter what I set! Second, regardless of environment, the colorbars are ALWAYS right (as long as the colorbars themselves are correct). I should be able to use one set of colorbars for FCP, AE, Vegas Pro, …etc and they should ALL agree (as long as I configured the environment correctly for them).

Haha Jim, this was funny, “BTW – It has been said that NTSC stands for Never Twice the Same Color by those of us who worked with it in analog form on a regular basis.”

I’m sure that was frustrating in the ‘analog’ world at the time :). Now we are in the digital age (which you are apart of two). The NTSC color bars should ALWAYS be the same color now as long as the environment is setup correctly (and all the tools work correctly too)

Thanks for your input, I’m still investigating the issue.

[Jason Freets]

Hello Dave,

I appreciate your input on this! 🙂

You said, “I’d be skeptical about the accuracy of that color bar image. It’s possible you don’t know where it’s been!” It’s been generated by Vegas Pro where I’ve used a lot there. Works great for calibration in that environment. Scopes show everything as I would expect.

I put the same into After Effects, and was shocked by how I couldn’t get it to show correctly on the scopes. I then spent hours re-starting my machine, trying different settings, and verifying everything I could. I attached my preferences I set in Color Finesse to help show that. Finally, I threw my hands in the air. I have no idea what the issue is. Something so simple has become quite frustrating.

So, my point was, I didn’t trust anything on the internet. I trust my SMPTE calibration pattern more than what I could find. And as I said, I believe mine is correct.

I am hoping someone can verify the pattern or perhaps has dealt with this issue before in After Effects.

Thanks Dave!

[Jason Freets]

Hello Jim,

Thanks for the info. I suppose you are right. The color bars is owned by the SMPTE. One can forget this since it’s such a helpful pattern and so useful for calibration.

However, there are only a few specific colors. What makes the SMPTE bars unique is the layout. So, it’s not really that ‘hard’ to reproduce if you know what the colors are to be.

The one I’ve attached are 75% SMPTE NTSC color bars. Or, I would think.

I generated it using Vegas Pro and have used it heavily there for other work. However, now that I am doing more advanced stuff, I’m verifying things in After Effects and was surprised when my scopes weren’t what I expected.

It’s for this reason I also attached it. I was hoping someone could throw it up on maybe something they had briefly and verify I’m not going crazy. 😉 Calibration is a pretty basic thing to do. So I figured there are others who could confirm.

Again, I think the one I attached is CORRECT.

You said, “Video Level Coding to 0 – 255 instead of 16 – 235.” Where is this set in After Effects? I’ll try to look for it. Will post back if I do.

[Jason Freets]

Hello David,

You are correct! You earlier wrote:

“If we “assume” your AJA card is not defective in any way, and the signal does not pass through any other device between the AJA and “secondary” capture card, then yes, you should be adjusting the proc amp on the secondary card to achieve proper levels. Make sure you are using the waveform and vectorscope displays to confirm proper adjustments.”

I have confirmed that the output from the AJA Kona set at 75% color bars is correctly aligned on my waveform and vectorscope displays. So I am happy that I can use this as a means to calibrate my other capture cards. And, the levels look just perfect on both the waveform and vector scope. I then re-confirmed with another piece of hardware that also outputs NTSC colorbars. And, they both match up. So that’s great; there is some consistency!

However, there is one catch! The vectorscope and waveform monitor I have only calibrates to composite. Right? I just confirmed that the composite output from the AJA Kona is correct. And, although it’s correct for composite, how do I approach calibrating the signal from S-Video or even component? There must be a technique or something that can help me to approximate a close enough calibration. For example, the AJA Kona will output composite correctly. However, if I am using S-Video or component, how do I know what’s being put on those lines are indeed correct? Perhaps pass S-Video or component through a device that outputs composite as well as S-Video or component? Run the composite end through my waveform and vector scope to make sure they are within the proper levels? But would that really confirm that still what ends up flowing down the line through the S-Video or component is also at the proper levels?

Aside from my main question and in answering another of your questions, I have the Kona LHe currently. And, I don’t see a way to set the proc amp controls via software. In trying to better understand this, I found others who have struggled with this too in another thread:

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/150/836522

So, it looks like we’re not the only ones who have struggled with this issue. Therefore, I’ll need to (and as you said) use a proc amp on my source or pass it through another secondary proc amp to correct the levels prior to entry into the AJA Kona capture card.

Look forward to your input …

[Jason Freets]

Excellent David! I appreciate the feedback.

For the AJA Kona card itself, is there a way to adjust it’s proc amps? Or, is the only way to adjust the signal into the AJA Kona card by an external video proc amp?

What is the proper way of doing this?

Jason