David Lawrence
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COW Coins
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[Jeremy Garchow] “So they’d switch an entire system for a trim tool? Just curious.”
Not for the trim tool alone, but it’s a bigger deal than I think some people realize. Premiere still has a way to go but everything’s moving in the right direction. Once the big, well known issues are worked out, my gut says a lot of Avid editors will be *very* interested. From a few informal conversations with friends in LA, I get the sense everyone’s paying close attention to Adobe’s next move. I’m very curious to hear what DRW has to say from his year in the trenches.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I did not use the ‘dynamic trimming’ in FCP7, I don’t use the Precision Editor in FCPX. I use the keyboard shortcut trim tools in FCPX, along with the magnetic timeline specifically the ] [ ‘ ; . , play stop rewind skim mouse, also adding an option or shift key to some of those.”
Interesting that no one really seems to use the PE. Would love to hear from someone who does. I really am curious what people think it’s good for.
[Jeremy Garchow] “In FCP7, I’d double click the clip to load it in the viewer from the timeline (so that the clip has the little sprocket marks), play, and then hit out and the clip in the timeline would have the adjusted out (or in).
I would have to be careful and play track tetris before hand as FCP7 hates when I try and override clips due to the clip collision rules. If I don’t, it tells me there’s a media limit. I try and tell it, it has its limits. It doesn’t respond, so I hit the out button a bunch of time to sound the warning bleep over and over in rapid succession. It makes me feel better, and then I go play track tetris and all is right with the world.”
Wait, you do your trimming in FCP7 in the viewer? Really? I’m surprised. I’m sure you know the other ways. Why not on the timeline like you’re doing now in X?
I never trim in the viewer. I sometimes use it to set up IO points before adding a clip to the timeline, but I’m more likely to just drop a clip onto the timeline and set IO there. Most often, I use viewer to manipulate effects or motion settings, or do super-precise subframe audio key framing. I think the viewer kinda sucks for trimming so I trim directly in the timeline or in trim mode when I need to tweak critical pacing. If you’re doing most of your trimming in the viewer, I understand why you might be underwhelmed by the Legacy’s trim tools.
Maybe I’m weird or just used to it, but track Tetris isn’t something I even think about. I do it when needed before trimming and rarely get any clip collision warnings. It’s just part of the process. I’m with Aindreas on this. I like my fragile timeline and I like deciding for myself what to open up and move.
On a complex timeline like Charlie’s example, I’m not sure how much you really gain in FCPX. Instead of playing Tetris, you have to think about clip connection points. You may have to unscramble the vertical stacking of connected clips and/or re-trim audio. You still have to think about whether anything’s messed up downstream outside the window view. It’s still work. I prefer doing the set-up work first, knowing I’m making every decision, rather than figuring out what the timeline just did to my edit and fixing it afterwards.
[Jeremy Garchow] “There is no equivalent for this in X either, which is really too bad as the magnetic non-collide rules would really help me out here.”
So in X, clip collisions can still happen when trimming? Yikes!
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “oh Johnathan Ive.”
LOL, +1 for Ive and the clip!
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[Andy Field] “interesting that they say bring it to “Final Cut Pro Studio” not FCPX which is no longer a “studio” — could final cut pro 8 be on the way?!?!?! :-)”
I noticed that too. Very interesting!
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Better late than never, I suppose. I would have expected something like this a year ago or more. How long do you think it’ll take to see major improvements?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Well, is there a tool just like Avid or, now Pr? No. “
True, but I’m talking specifically about the trim tools. In Hollywood, Avid trim tools are the gold standard but with Pr CS6, Adobe has caught up. Avid editors I’ve talked to are impressed and paying attention.
[Jeremy Garchow] “There’s the precision editior, if thats your bag, and a big list of shortcuts. The timeline itself is dynamic. “
If the trim tools in FCPX are so much better than Legacy, why is the “Precision Editor” even necessary? What specific problem does it solve? Do you use it much?
[Jeremy Garchow] “Did you really use the dynamic otrim window in fcp7?”
Once I discovered how it worked, absolutely. For every cut? Of course not — most of the time I still use the mouse. But for precise, detail trimming where a single frame makes a difference in feel, it’s great.
[Jeremy Garchow] “You don’t, necessarily, need a dynamic trimmer to be a better editor, that’s all I’m saying. I was going against the platitudes of “the best” editors using dynamic trimming. “
Agreed. I was just stating my experience and observations and pushing back against Chris’s pronouncements about dynamic trim tools. Look, I do color correction on every single piece I work on, but it’s not my main job or expertise. There’s a reason I don’t hang out in the DaVinci forums telling the experts there the future of their tools and workflows.
My point is that dynamic trim tools are popular with A-list editors for a reason. I didn’t fully appreciate why until I started using them myself. My personal experience is that using them literally changed my perception as an editor. I could feel myself working at a different level and could see the better results in my finished work. That’s just me. It doesn’t mean it’s true for everyone or that other types of tools can’t do this as well. As always, YMMV.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “It could be better in FCPX, yes, other NLEs are better, but it’s not like there’s nothing.”
Not saying there’s nothing, just that there’s nothing equivalent.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Plus, I seem to experience editors that don’t need the speed do not muck with keyboard shortcuts, it is all mouse all the time and all menus all the time.
Editors that need to be fast use the shortcuts.”
Speed is one factor but I was talking more about a specific approach to trimming. I use the mouse all the time. I switch to the keyboard to trim because it’s the only way I can get the control, precision, and realtime feedback I need.
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[Charlie Austin] “FWIW, in addition to keyframing, you can also slip audio tracks by subframes in FCP 7. However, you do need to go to the viewer to do it.”
Yep, cool feature!
[Charlie Austin] “The great thing about X s you can do it in the timeline, which is really nice. In this instance X really is unambiguously better than Legacy.”
I unambiguously agree. 😉
[Charlie Austin] “Also FWIW, I rarely use the mouse to trim in X. Well, other than key framing and dragging fade handles… things like that. Also, contrary to popular belief, you can select, and trim edits on multiple (connected) clips at once if the cuts are on the same frame….”
Cool. It’s all about whatever works.
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[Charlie Austin] “I am, and I found David’s comments to be highly subjective at best, but mostly incredibly condescending. There are generations of “the best… advanced” film editors who would probably disagree.”
No condescension intended. We agree they’re just tools. It’s great we all have more choices and I respect everyone’s choice. I just find it amusing when the folks who freely admit they don’t know what they don’t know chime in as the voice of authority around here. It’s fun pushing back. Feel free to disagree anytime. It’s all good.
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[Chris Kenny] “You’re seriously overselling this. “
Nope. There’s a reason why rock ‘n roll trim tools are considered Avid’s crown jewels by the film industry. It’s also a big factor in why the industry has been resistant to change. True, enterprise and large commercial post is generally slow to embrace new technologies, but up to now, there’s been no viable alternative NLE with comparable trimming power. Pr CS6 is the first.
[Chris Kenny] “The idea that most edits are made during live playback — and apparently Apple is as ignorant as I am about this fact — is a little implausible.”
I never said such a thing. We’re talking about trimming – the fine, detail work – and trim tools.
Why do high-end colorists use control surfaces? Are you saying they’d be just as efficient if they were limited to working with a mouse and onscreen UI?
JKL dynamic trimming turns the keyboard into a control surface for trimming. It enables editors to manipulate and judge pacing and feel, on-the-fly in real time. The benefits are major and real.
BTW, I don’t think Apple is ignorant, but I do think they have their own agenda and that agenda has everything to do with Apple, not industry standards or the needs of top-tier users.
[Chris Kenny] “You’re also pushing this feature as a critical advantage when classic FCP — which captured more than 50% of the ‘pro’ market, as measured by SCRI’s survey — never really had this either. Trimming in FCP X is pretty unambiguously better than it was in FCP 7.”
Actually, FCP Legacy does have dynamic, keyboard trimming. I used the software for years before I discovered it. When in trim mode, pretty much everything is keyboard controllable. The problem is it switches to a modal window rather than operating on the timeline itself. And you sometimes do have to grab the mouse. But the basics are definitely there. Is it as good as Avid? No. It’s not really as flexible. But I’ve demoed it plenty of times to Avid editors who were surprised it was even possible.
It’s like subframe audio editing. A lot of folks around here claimed you couldn’t do that in Legacy either. You can. Sometimes it pays to RTFM. I agree FCPX has some nice trimming features. I disagree it’s unambiguously better than Legacy.
[Chris Kenny] “Plus, the demo video of Premiere that started this subthread does not actually appear to show the Avid behavior you’re describing.”
It’s not in that particular demo, but it’s entirely possible.
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[Chris Kenny] “it’s entirely possible that you’re right, but unless you’ve measured it, you really don’t know. You literally cannot determine which of two (small) UI interactions is faster via your own subjective experience. Your brain lies to you. This is not really a controversial opinion in the UX world.”
The speed benefits of dynamic trimming have nothing to do with measured performance. Dynamic/rock ‘n roll trimming allows the editor to make decisions in realtime, during playback, without ever touching the mouse.
Advanced editors don’t cut by looking, they cut entirely by feel, looping playback and trimming until the cut feels right without ever lifting their fingers from the keyboard.
This, and rock-solid media management/sharing is why AVID remains the standard for Hollywood and large-scale productions. Premiere Pro CS6 has already caught up with trimming. As soon as Adobe works out media management, you can be sure Premiere will be a strong contender for the new industry standard bearer.
The best editors cut by feel, not by look. An edit is a time-based event and the most efficient way find that perfect cut is in time. There is simply no equivalent in FCPX.
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