David Lawrence
2
COW Coins
Forum Replies Created
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Generally, sure, but not necessarily when using the new “back” composite mode”
Are you talking about the “behind” mode in the alpha group? I’m sure it’s useful but it reminds me of the position tool – something they had to add to deal with new problems that weren’t there before.
[Jeremy Garchow] “In fcp7, the vertical relationship is implied, in X it’s “forced” but it doesn’t take long to figure out. Horizontal relationships are held in tracks in fcp7, if they are needed in X, they are maintained through secondary storylines. “
In FCP7:
Horizontal relationships define the edit.
Vertical relationships define the composite.End of story. It doesn’t get any simpler. They’re both always needed. That’s why it’s important to have a solid foundation to build on. Tracks do this well for both.
In this example, the clip connections specify relationships that don’t make sense given what the editor wants to do. What if the relationships that matter are between the composite elements? If new model is about defining relationships, then it needs to be much more flexible. Being forced to connect to the primary storyline is a huge limitation. Being forced to nest doesn’t fix this.
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David Lawrence
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This is great, thank you Jeremy.
Here’s the big problem this demonstrates:
1) Compositing still works by layering from the top down.
2) Clip connections can only be made to the primary storyline – the base layer.
3) If you turn composite groups into compound clips, you lose the ability to edit their elements in context.Everything must be in relationship to the primary storyline, or hidden in its own separate world.
Ouch.
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David Lawrence
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[Andy Neil] “I consider breaking apart clips as akin to unlinking clips in FCP 7 which, as you know, will not give you sync errors when shifted.”
Not an error, but soon as you shift audio even one frame out of sync, you see an indication of exactly what the sync slippage is. This essential feature has been around since FCP1. That Apple would leave out something this fundamental speaks volumes of either their priorities or their sloppiness with this release.
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David Lawrence
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[Andy Neil] “Sure, track-based audio is necessary for Pro Tools or other audio finishing programs”
Some of us do audio finishing in FCP.
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David Lawrence
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Here’s a working permanent link:
🙂
_______________________
David Lawrence
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propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl -
[Andrew Richards] “The context ought be displayed when you drill into a compound clip. You shouldn’t have to choose between working a fine edit in context and retaining the effects applied to a compound clip. I still like to concept, but it is too limited today to be workable.”
One way it could work is instead of switching context, they simply expand in the timeline. Like how the ^V Show Video Animations command works. The Avid also does this with effects nesting.
[Andrew Richards] “I agree in general; I think there needs to be a way to visualize and manipulate whole audio channels in aggregate. I’ve written about my idea for how this could be done a couple of times. Of course, it the here and now, none of that is available.”
Totally agree with the basic ideas in your posts linked above. The idea of using metadata to assign track definitions in conjunction with a fully customizable UI could be amazing. I’ve been thinking about this a lot. What would a hybrid UI look like that allowed the user to mix and match the characteristics of both the magnetic timeline, and an open track-based timeline based on needs? I think it’s totally possible to combine parts of both and get something insanely powerful. If I get some time, I’ll try to mock up some ideas I’ve been toying with.
[Andrew Richards] ” think the concept of trackless is good, if very roughly executed this first go round. I think the advantages of trackless don’t have to exclude the advantages of tracks (even if the present execution does). I like the idea of the system being aware of explicit media relationships that can be exploited to revisualize the interface according to the task at hand. I think the guts necessary to support such a thing are there in FCPX.”
Totally agree here too. I actually have less a problem with tracklessness than I do with the constraints of the object rules and behaviors. If there was better consistency, less hierarchy, more flexibility with how relationships can be defined and the ability to turn ripple off without using slugs, trackless could be great. Now let’s say there can be multiple primary storylines. They could essentially function as tracks depending on your needs. There’s a ton of possibility if Apple hasn’t boxed itself in.
The reason I mentioned DAWs was to encourage thinking about the magnetic timeline in the context of music creation, spotting and sound design. With music and sound, fixed ripple mode editing can actually be dangerous; and needing objects to fill empty space is cumbersome. Since we no longer have Soundtrack Pro for round-trip mixing/sweetening, I’m very curious how Apple will address audio, a place where open tracks still make a lot of sense.
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David Lawrence
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[Oliver Peters] “There are some clues in the code – discovered by people poking around – that seem to indicate a track-based GUI was in the original design.”
That’s right. Here’s an icon that Alex Gollner found while digging around inside the app. You can see it for yourself by control-clicking the app and selecting “Show Package Contents” and then looking at Final Cut Pro/Contents/Resources/Sequence.icns:
Here’s the link to Alex Gollner’s post about this.
This image gives me both hope and disappointment. Imagine FCPX with this interface and all of the powerful new architectural underpinnings. It would be amazing. Maybe Apple can still bring this back and make the magnetic timeline optional. The model could be similar to DVD Studio Pro’s option of providing simple, intermediate, and advanced workspaces. Let the user choose for themselves how much control they want exposed in the UI. My fear is they’ve gone in a radically different direction that doesn’t give them that option.
I guess we’ll have to wait and see…_______________________
David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow] “You can’t. Still beats the nesting in FCP <= 7.”
Bingo. That’s my point and Shawn Federline’s as well. Many advanced editors have workflows that absolutely require this kind of flexibility.
I do agree that compound clips are better than nesting in FCP7. Thing is, I almost never use nesting when I’m cutting. For me, nests are useful when adding subtitles or credits to a finished piece, things of that nature. When I’m cutting, they get in the way because they force a context switch. Even though the implementation of compound clips is better in FCPX, this context switch is inherent and it’s still a problem.
Because nesting is central to the FCPX workflow, it makes wonder how FCPX’s workflow scales. How does it handle editorial situations where you don’t want to or can’t nest, but are required to, in order to perform the needed task? These are the cases I don’t think Apple has thought through with their timeline model. This is the kind of thing I’d like to see tested.
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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Mr Lawrence, I know you are all about the “scratch” area to work, on, so am I. This is so easy to do above the primary storyline with connected clips to a gap. I do not miss the patch panel and auto select tracks one bit.
“Ah, I just saw this screengrab (I usually read and respond via email so sometimes images slip thru the cracks).
This is great, thank you! Just the kind of test I’m looking for. Now can you please post another grab with view clip connections turned on? I think we need to see clip connections to get a better idea of what’s really going on here. Thanks!
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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I took the physical challenge.”
OK, now expand your compound clips so we can see and manipulate everything in context at the same time, in the same window. Also, all transitions must still work.
_______________________
David Lawrence
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propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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