[Tim Wilson]

[Andrew Kimery] “But that’s a pretty big incentive to buy an AppleTV is it not?”

Not if you don’t buy TV from iTunes. Do you? I don’t buy TV at all. I get it from some combination of Netflix and Amazon.

I do in fact have Apple TV — it came with the house, because the previous owners didn’t use it. I set it up (a PITA, btw), and have used it once or twice to stream music from my iPad, but still not as efficient as the combination of Spotify and Amazon. The more closely tied to the iTunes ecosystem it is, the LESS useful it is.

Indeed, it simply reinforces my desire to not use iTunes for getting my TV content, or using Apple TV for either video or music distribution through the house. Every single device I have works better.

Don’t be acting like I’m alone in that. LOL

And hey, let’s say I ONLY get my media through iTunes. Fine. This raises the value of Apple TV, but does NOTHING to raise the value of Mac as a computing platform. Nothing.

Pushing me to buy a Mac to enjoy Apple TV and iTunes helps ensure that I WON’T buy ANY of them. Buying a Mac doesn’t relieve my pain, or answer a single need for distributed media via Apple TV. None.

I think you guys are conflating device OS — yes, I want a good experience across my devices — and computer OS. I want to spend as little time thinking about that as possible, and Mac or Windows are value-neutral for that.

And unified device OS is independent of iTMS. I want my use of NETFLIX to be unified, which it most certainly is not, but it’s certainly not a dealbreaker for accessing it through any device I have access to. Ecosystem, schmecosystem.

Maybe you need to be a hardcore Windows iOS user, of which there are multitudes. I’m married to one. I can’t tell you the last year she went to iTunes except the app store on her phone, and the sun will go nova before she touches a Mac. And she’s doing something or other on her iPhone like 15 hours a day. LOL This is commmmmmmmmon outside the COW, I assure you.

Don’t be acting like I’m alone in that perspective either. LOL Apple feels the same way, or they’d be acting differently….and they’d be losing marketshare if they did. “Ecosystem” ends at the app store, and on your phone, it doesn’t even requires iTunes.

iTunes is an obstacle. The desktop is an obstacle.

No ecosystem. None. Just a cool device with cool apps.

[Walter Soyka] “To paraphrase Mr. McGuire, “I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening? Services.”

This isn’t just Apple’s play. Amazon, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft all want to do the same thing.”

Except Apple is the company for whom that’s the LEAST true. Who’s going to buy an Amazon phone to work their store? Nobody. That product is walking dead. The Play store IS useless apart from Google services, which is why it’s a non-player.

Microsoft has a pretty cool set of phones (have you seen the HTC M8? Gorgeous), and a nice tablet but again, their message is far more “real Photoshop and real Office” than anything else. Their commercials are all about the software, the pen, the touchscreen, and usability. NOT the ability to tie it to the desktop. Why they do THAT? Yeah, there’s a lot more Windows desktop users than Mac users, but I don’t get the hurry that any of them are in a hurry to extend that experience to the devices. They want devices that do cool stuff. The end.

(BTW, I do think they’re pretty well locked in to Windows users. Mac people dislike MSFT a LOT. I would imagine that the percentage of Mac users using Playstation is far less than the proportional mix of computers to game consoles would lead some people to guess.)

So yeah, Apple is selling the same thing as the other guys to the extent that there’s iOS syncing with contacts, cloud storage, etc. But NONE of those requires a computer. You can live a long, happy, productive, adamantly ardent iLife without ever touching a Mac.

I’d argue that the less you touch a Mac, the better it will be. Which is also why Apple has been adamant that Apple will never merge the OS and iOS. There’s just no point. It’s not going to win them a single customer, and it’s not going to keep one.

NO ECOSYSTEM, apart from the phone and the apps. None.

Look, I swear you guys are overthinking this because you ARE all-Apple. It’s not necessary, it’s not important, and taking people OFF the device, and putting them ON a computer is BAD.

This market, of course not. People need computers. Which is why I have no worries about Apple’s ability to make and sell computers. They’re doing it well. Better than ever.

And their success with devices depends on keeping computers out of the message. Apple computer people don’t need the message anyway, so I’ll bet you a real pony that you’ll never hear Apple even HINT at this.

Until they’re streaming Beats music over Bluetooth, which is far more a killer app than Apple TV, because Apple wants to provide the best possible experience no matter how few devices they use. They’re not going to pitch you Apple TV or Macs when all they really NEED from you is to help them monetize Beats….which I think will be a slam dunk, but that’s another story….

No ecosystem. More ecoystem beyond the device itself becomes an obstacle to the majority of Apple’s customers.

[Tim Wilson]

[Robin S. Kurz] “certainly aren’t situations that one encounters constantly, though something tells me you’re going to say that they of course are. Probably even daily, of course. :D”

Don’t be like that. That’s simply out of line. If Herb tells you he does it every day, on every edit, he does. Period. Debating him on what he does, or accusing him of stretching the truth to make a point is simply inappropriate.

Among the many points of this forum is for people to discuss workflows. That requires listening, and accepting alternate points of view. FCPX is simply NOT the best NLE for every person and every project, no matter how much some enthusiasts are trying to argue the point.

And I say this as the first and most enthusiastic of the earlier enthusiasts. I just also believe that it’s ridiculous to try to shoehorn every workflow into it. I’ve also been one of the most enthusiastic endorsers of Adobe Premiere, and have been since it was my own first NLE in 1994.

(Now THAT was some hard work, y’all. LOL However, I’ve loved it since Premiere Pro was introduced in 2003, and I think Mac users have no idea just how powerful it was with hardware like Matrox Digisuite.I’m pretty sure there’s still nothing like it on the Mac side.

And hey, does anybody else here remember pre-SpiceRack Michael Feerer’s book, Premiere 4 With a Passion back in 95? Epic.)

Anyway, in no case is it appropriate to suggest that somebody is saying something untrue to make a point, solely because it doesn’t apply to you. If everyone had the same problems, and could work with the same solutions, those of us at the COW would need to look for other jobs. It’s a complicated world, and that complexity deserves out utmost and dearest respect.

Throwing in a smilie and some variation of “different strokes for different folks” at the end of a post that argues the contrary is disengenuous. It’s frankly beneath you. Speak your piece, honestly and directly, and assume that other people are doing the same.

I mention this about Herb in particular. One reason that “the usual suspects” are in this forum even though they may not use FCPX is because they’ve been in Creative COW for YEARS. You know when Herb joined Creative COW? The day we opened in 2001. Account #248. We’re coming up on 300,000 now.

Herb was also an active part of our previous community, which celebrates its 20th anniversary this spring.

That doesn’t NECESSARILY give him any more authority than you or anyone else. We rely on new members such as yourself to stay alive, Robin. Everyone is an expert on something that nobody else is. But for speaking about his WORK, Herb is the ONLY authority.

Herb has also seen the work of people here for many years, and they have earned his trust over decades as his peers. Who else would he possibly be talking to about these issue? Nobody. THIS is where this discussion belongs, and it’s where Herb belongs talking about it.

I apologize to Herb for shining a spotlight on him that he might not appreciate, but you newer folks would do well to look at the profiles of other people you’re talking to, so you know what you’re talking about.

Finally, Herb is one of these mythical dinosaurs who has in fact changed NLEs (and linear systems) far more times than the younger members here. He has done this under live fire on one of America’s most prestigious television networks, on one of their flagship shows.

It might be interesting ON A NEW THREAD to take a look at the specifics of Herb’s Adobe Premiere Pro workflow for tight-turnaround multicam TV production. Having changed NLEs as many times as he has, I know that Herb is open to changing again. He simply asked you specifically how FCPX could improve what he does. Fair question I think.

Fair question for another thread. 🙂 So maybe start with his article, and start a new thread to suggest benefits that FCPX offers that would improve upon his Premiere Pro workflow. I find specifics to be very helpful.

Cooking With Premiere Pro CC on PBS’s America’s Test Kitchen

Best regards,

Tim Wilson, Ex Cathedra
Creative COW

(Not the infallible part, just the part about speaking in my official capacity as an officer of the organization)

[Tim Wilson]

[Walter Soyka] “my first thought is that iTMS was the inflection point between where we were then and where we are now.”

Functionally, perhaps, but in practice, it was the introduction of iTMS on Windows. You can see it in both the revenue charts and the stock price charts.

I think that’s one reason why the ecosystem play is way off the mark. People may tend to drift a little more toward Macs because of their iPhones, but you know what? They mostly don’t. The majority of iDevice users are on Windows, and Apple will live a long and happy corporate life just taking people’s money for devices and apps.

In fact, they’ll do ANYTHING to AVOID the implication that you have to use a Mac to use an iPhone. That’s too much friction.

Also in fact, the furthest I’ve seen an ecosystem play push is that Apple TV is better than Roku because it plays back stuff you bought in iTunes. THAT’S IT.

Otherwise, there’s the actual ecosystem inside the physical Apple store, but only 20% of iPhones are sold in brick and mortar Apple stores. Best Buy and Walmart are both in that vicinity, and phone stores aren’t that far behind.

Nobody NEEDS an ecosystem play, and again, the more you pitch an ecosystem, the less success you’ll see. I don’t want to buy a Mac to use a phone, and I don’t want a second-class experience on Windows. Right now, neither is the case at all. That’s how it should be.

TIME FOR A CAR METAPHOR.

The existence of Prius has no impact on anyone buying or not buying a Corolla or a Lexus. Toyota actually goes out of its way to make sure NOBODY thinks about one brand when they’re looking at another. Ecosystem plays are bad ideas….

…unless you’re selling ecosystems. Avid, yes. Apple, absolutely not. There’s simply no FUNCTIONAL advantage to owning a Mac for an iTMS customer. Anything that y’all Mac addicts point to from your EXPERIENCE will look like noise to a Windows user, whose experience as an iUser on Windows is just fine thanks.

Which is exactly how Apple wants it. They’ll sell everything they possibly can, to everyone they possibly can. Yes, they’ll be delighted to sell you a computer, but nothing in their business model, their development model, or their actual products says that it’s all that high a priority for Apple relative to you buying a device, an assload of apps, and maybe some headphones.

Which, by the way, work just great when plugged into Windows computers and Android phones.

This is also why I think it’s NONSENSE to pick an either/or when talking about Apple’s primary business of selling consumer devices has any meaningful impact on professional software development, or for that matter, corporate ethics. Good companies do more than one thing, each with the appropriate level of focus. They do it every day. It’s not that hard. Apple is a little better than a “good” company.

[Walter Soyka] “I don’t think Apple was in the ground-breaking business in 1999.”

Interesting to me is that the one thing that Apple has only marginal success at is selling Macs.

Mac wasn’t the best-selling product line in the company, or the one with the biggest marketshare, when it was axed. It simply represented the direction that Apple wanted to pursue for its own vision of its future. (Sound familiar?)

Steve was long gone by then of course, but the company spent most of the 90s circling the drain as they simply didn’t do very well as a computer company. In 2003, Apple’s stock barely crept out of single digits. Even with relative successes like iMac, investors weren’t convinced that Apple was going to return enough on their investment to make it worth their while.

Until iTMS showed up on Windows, and now Apple could sell iPods to virtually everyone with a computer.

Another reason the ecosystem argument falls apart? Nobody who’s playing to win is playing solely on Mac. Sure, a niche company can make a very nice living servicing that niche, but not even Apple will pin its future to a customer base that’s solely Mac. It’s critical to their success as a company that most of their customers NOT be on Mac.

Not that they’re not playing to win in computers. I think they are, and I think it’s a little ironic in context that they’re doing it better now than ever. I think that having Jobs out of the way will make it better still. (You know that the previous record quarters for Mac sales were when Cook was acting CEO for 24 months, right?)

But Apple is not selling computers based on how easy it is to use an iPhone. Because nobody playing to win in the mobile space is focusing only on iPhone either. Apple will take your computer money without forcing you to buy a new phone, too.

No kidding. If you’re not using a Mac, your view of the ecosystem is your phone and iTunes, and it’s no more or less stupendous or exasperating with Windows than it is with Mac.

[Tim Wilson]

Greetings, and thank you for joining Creative COW!

I am afraid that I am not familiar with MARI. Can you tell me more about it? I may be able to help you find a better place to ask this question.

Best regards,

Tim Wilson
Creative COW

[Tim Wilson]

[Scott Witthaus] “Anyhow, I assume that to do the free Cloud trial I won’t have to subscribe or put credit card digits out there?”

Virtually every trial I’m aware of requires a credit card.

I actually went through this as an exercise a while back. Amazon Prime, ESPN.com, Microsoft Office 365, Ancestry.com, “The Honest Company” which sells natural diaper products and services, Spotify, Netflix, Dropbox, Hulu, LinkedIn, etc etc etc.

The only one I saw that doesn’t roll you into autopay unless you cancel is Google Cloud.

And the only trial I came across that didn’t require a credit card at all was the SiriusXM online service.

I can’t say I looked at more than a couple of dozen, but I wouldn’t be dismayed if that’s the case with Adobe.

Needless to say, I haven’t looked at Adobe’s site. LOL Why do that when I can speculate? But in fact, I had previously looked into this for another project. Calling taking credit cards for trials being “the standard” way of doing things is an understatement. It’s virtually universal.

[Tim Wilson]

[Marianna Montague] “there are way tooooooo many internet sites now with people asking questions and we can’t be everywhere at once.”

Or you could spend more time hanging around the site with the largest number of people. 🙂

[Tim Wilson]

Not me!

There are actually a handful of us in the industry. I know of this guy, and this one, and this one. There are probably others too.

I did in fact show up in a number of Amiga-related venues last year because of my article on Tim Jensen, co-founder of NewTek and inventor of the Video Toaster (which ran in Amiga computurs) and Tricaster, and the featured manic-obsessive in the wonderful documentary Tim’s Vermeer, which I wrote about here at the COW.

Thanks for asking, though. 🙂

[Tim Wilson]

[John Rofrano] “Everyone has their own workflow that works for them. I respect that.”

Careful, them’s fightin’ words in these parts. LOL

[Tim Wilson]

[Andrew Kimery] “I think this is a testament to how the three A’s have all improved their offerings while at the same time each fumbled away their respective opportunities to really get a leg up on the competition.”

I think it’s equally true that some FCP-ers felt so thoroughly burned that they’ll never trust Apple or anyone else again. They’re hedging their bets against further pain.

(You may have some distant memory of a fellow who was so dismayed by Avid’s mishandling of DS that he left both it and Windows behind to go both feet into FCP…only to be dismayed by X, return to Windows for Premiere Pro…only to be dismayed by a subscription-only future. He’s no longer in this business at all. An extreme case, but thoroughly documented.)

For one reason or another (workflow, format support, etc), some legacy FCP-ers have also NEEDED to make their next NLE moves, and found that not even the combination of Media Composer, Premiere Pro, and X makes them as happy as FCP did, but only the combination covers their needs.

So this unparalleled flexibility is in fact being driven by dinosaurs who find themselves unwilling or unable to commit to X, rather than the forward thinkers now settling into an X-only mindset that’s calcifying even harder than the hardest-core FCP-er ever had.

Note that I’m personally passing no judgments. If there’s an earlier proponent of X here than me, then I don’t remember him. To this day, I may be the only one who said that Apple’s rollout plan was flawless, and that keeping FCP 7 alive for a single second after the release of X would have been spectacularly misguided insanity. I was certainly the first, and spent months fighting uphill with that argument against all comers.

I’ve also said that “learn them all” is for most people a waste of time to be avoided, while also being a vocal fan of both Premiere Pro and Media Composer from long before any of this started. Makes no nevermind to me.

I’m just trying to use language in a way that annoys the largest number of people by overstating their position from the opposite perspective. LOL

But I honestly don’t think it’s as simple as saying that all of these options represent progress for every user — even though I also entirely agree with you that all the A’s, including X, have considerably raised their game in the last three and a half years since the X-pocalypse.

[Tim Wilson]

Aside from this particular quote, the idea is quite common. “Dinosaur” has become shorthand for the idea that all modern, forward-thinking editors will choose FCPX, and the only people who choose other NLEs, or stick with their old NLEs, are ones with outdated workflows that need refreshing.

It’s an interesting flip from the early days of the forum, where the default position was very much a version of the opposite — X’s necessarily niche-y role, to the extent that it was viable at all, and it mostly wasn’t. Certainly the first shifts were courtesy of specific updates from Apple to address early shortcomings or to finish baking features that were originally half-baked at best.

But I’m not aware of anyone who said, “Wow, this is exactly the way I’ve always wanted to work. Finally I can overcome the rewiring I had to do in order to use other NLEs. THIS is how MY mind has always worked.” The biggest shift in attitude came as people DID rewire themselves, and found it good.

That’s why it’s always worthwhile to revisit this topic. There are people on this very thread who’d never tried either X or Premiere Pro this time last year — maybe even last summer. Others have tried both in the past year, or have deepened their skills in both in meaningful ways,and can for the first time provide insight based on experience with the latest versions of each.

As long as people are wrapping their heads around X for the first time, or keep adding another tool to the bag, or TRYING to, or giving up on X or WHATEVER, the conversation stays alive. It’s always worth taking the temperature of the room. It changes.

I was also intrigued by the RedShark guy’s experience that what he’d prefer to use and what the client prefers are different, but that he’s okay with both. The fact is that the FCP community was the most mono-cultural group in the COW, with the possible exception of the Vegas folks…but now, heritage FCP-ers are more likely than anyone to be thoroughly fluent in more than one NLE, with fluency in all 3 major A companies quite common. Simply unprecedented, anywhere in the COW, and I’d wager anywhere in the industry. Virtually nobody used to say, “You need to know ’em all.” Quite the contrary.

And now, there’s nowhere more likely to hear some similar statement than here…except to the extent that mono-culture is returning, only this time wearing an X. No need to use anything else, because no matter what your workflow, X works best, and I have the examples to prove that there’s no workflow that X hasn’t more than licked.

Which means that the notion that there’s something limited in the thinking of people who don’t choose X, that they haven’t chosen X because they haven’t GOTTEN it, and once they GET it, of COURSE they’ll use it — is becoming more and more common, with or without the D word, the presence of which is nevertheless implied.