[Chad Hall]

Bumping this thread to see if anyone else has run into the need for capturing SDI with closed captioning embedded into the Ki Pro? With the release of 3.0, it appears that this has still not been addressed.

[Chad Hall]

I have been using the FS-100 (100gig) version with my HDX900 for almost 2 years now. To answer your question, the firestore drive is tempermental and not always 100% reliable, but the beauty with the HDX900 is that you can roll tape simultaniously with the FS-100. For anything important, I never run it without a tape as backup.

Chad H.

[Chad Hall]

Well, I sould suspect that the point was to take an already established, stable product (PCMCIA) and built upon that. There would be signifcant R&D in developing a whole new flash housing not to mention that “bigger” cards is not the direction that we want to go in technology. Smaller and lighter should be the goals. Plus, who can say that in a couple of years or less P2 will be up to 320 gig? I’m personally glad to see that we are pushing the technology envelope instead of being content with what’s available now. I still contend we have a long way to go.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

[Bob Woodhead] “PLEASE… not ANOTHER thread on P2 “obsolescence”!!!”

Bob,

What in the world is wrong with asking these perfectly legitimate questions? Is this not what these forums are all about? This can either be a place for professional discussion about the good and bad of any product or an alter for perpetual praise for it. The later serves no benefit for the users, consumers and developers.

If these posts bother you that much, please don’t respond unless you have something constructive to say.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

Barry,

I agree with most of what you’re saying here. One thing though, I have never suggested that my market is “the” market. There are many factions of this business and many of them have indeed found a place for P2 and I have acknoledged that and applaud it. But the “camcorder rental market” is not the only area where P2 is stuggling.

I have only used my rental house as an example for the sake of this forum. I also work part time as an EIC and have been a freelance video shader for years. I have been on HD and digital expando’s from all over the country and I can tell you that it represents a very significant portion of this market. It also happens to be one where P2 does not exist. I don’t even see flash formats moving into that market anytime in the near future. Now EVS hard drive machines are standard on every truck, but even the brand new HD units still are installed with tape machines.

This brings up another point. Any serious mobile truck will have one of only three manufacturer of cameras; Sony, Ikegami and Thompson / Grass Valley. There are no other players. Now, as an engineer, I can tell you I would love to see a truck fitted with Panasonic HD cameras in a multi-cam setup. Nevertheless, no amount of “education” will change this because remote trucks are a very stuborn industry. Now Panasonic knows this and they have capitalized well on much of the other areas of production and some broadcast facilites as well. But it is far from taking over as any “standard” in my opinion.

To address P2’s competitors like the XDCAM, I agree with you. Let me be clear, I personally believe that P2, for what it is designed for, is the best option available today. But it does not meet every need and I believe that it is potentially vunerable for new technologies to be introduced that can do better.

I have always thought XDCAM was definately a move in the wrong direction. I don’t have a problem with what it does, but it is still composed of moving parts like a tape machine. I also don’t think HDV will ever see light outside of the prosumer market. It would be great to see P2 refined to the point where other companies would license it for their products because it will be to the point that BetaSP was in the early 90’s… it will meet almost all needs. However, I still see a lot of room to grow and the best does not always win. Remember Betamax vs. VHS?

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

Jeremy,

I am with you. I have followed these cameras since I read the first press release. That’s why it even harder for me to accept the fact that there is little interest for these cameras on the rental market. For a production company wanting to buy HD cameras, there is nothing better for the price.

Now the HPX3000 in 2 different models, a P2 and a tape model…. that would make all the difference for today. As much as we still try to fight it, we still live a very tape dominated industry, albeit it is dwindling slowly. Why not go step by step instead of diving head first?

That’s my 2 cents, even though I’ve been told it’s not worth a dime.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

Rennie,

Thank you. I stand corrected.

Should have done my homework better, but I honestly don’t even remember seeing these cameras at NAB. I think it is safe to say, however, that the the HVX200 is more or less responsible for the overall success of the P2 media.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

Jan,

Thank you for taking the time to chime in and I greatly appreciate your insight.

My issues lie in the fact that I have done many of the things you have already mentioned. I do understand the workflow have familiarized myself quite well with it through Final Cut Pro. I do stock the HVX200 and it is a great renter, but I rely heavily on the high end business to support my company.

I actually had an HPX500 on hand recently through an investor and was offered through my company. I could not rent it one time. Finally the investor took it back to sell it. The problem, from a rental house standpoint, is that it had the 2/3 inch size yet with the HVX200 menu interface. It was a little too “pro” for the high end guys and to “high end” for the shooters that are more comfortable with the smaller cameras. It was just too hard to break in with people. Now, on the other hand, the gentleman who repped it to me was able to work the camera a few times based on its specs alone to companies that wanted certain minimal specs for HD that the HPX500 was able to meet. They were more interested in those numbers than the actual camera that was used which worked out good for using the HPX500.

But this leads into my point of contention. When I saw the HDX900 at NAB I was very excited and knew this was a great buy. I was the first in Nashville to get this camera and through marketing and some demos to key clients I was able to make this camera a rental success in this market. Now there are probably a half dozen more here in town through other rental providers. As soon as a saw the specs for the HPX3000, I was probably even more excited. Many shooters have needs for 1920x1080P which the HDX900 will not do. They usually go for the F900 (not so much because it is Sony but because of the specs). I thought the HPX3000 was going effectively replace the Varicam and seriously hurt the F900 market. But as I begin to talk to my loyal high end shooters, I found there there was practically no interest soley because of the P2. It is a big disapointment, but I am still hoping to capture some interest in the film-maker turned HD market to use the HPX3000, but for now I cannot buy this camera because the interest is not there.

The HDX900 still continues to be a great renter for me and I have been able to introduce and educate many shooters on the benifits of tapeless aquisition via the Firestore FS-100. Having the ability to roll tape along side of this for the comfort factor has been a huge sell because they have nothing to lose. I have been sending the FS-100 out free from time to time with HDX900 rentals solely to help skeptical shooters see the benefits and ease.

I think P2 has and will continue to dominate the small camera market for now because for that it makes sense. I continue to be very unsure about its future in the high end market, however. I want it to be there, but I still contend that it does indeed have some hurdles to overcome.

Perhaps Panasonic would want to come to Nashville and demo the HPX3000 for the freelance market here to woo the skeptics! ::hint, hint:: wink, wink:: 🙂

Thanks,

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

Scott,

I appreciate your concern, but with all due respects I do try to educate almost everyone that comes into my shop who is not familiar with P2 and the firestore as alternatives to tape. The solution is not as simple as just educating everyone and then the whole world just comes into the P2 light. Most all of the high end shooters just want what their clients are asking for and for whatever reason those clients, NFL Films, Fox or whatever, do not want P2. (By the way, $12 is still much cheaper than a $200 hard drive like you mentioned). I am sure that they are not ‘uneducated’ on the product, it is just for whatever reason at this point in time it is not in their interest to switch.

I know that this technology is exciting and all of us want to usher in new technology like P2, but I have to live in the real world and respond to what the market speaks. A small portion of my business is P2. My HVX200 rents all the time, but the people renting the HVX200 are not the same people that come back and ask for an F900 or a Varicam. They are independent production companies and have a market of their own. I would recommend calling your local rental houses and ask them what percentage of their business involves P2? Let me know what you find. I beleive I am the only rental house in Nashville pushing this and the firestore in town, and it is still a very small percentage of my business.

I’m just trying to be pragmatic and not religious about this subject. P2 is great, but it is not everything yet.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

[Rennie] “BetaSP was a format, cameras ingested it and decks spit it out. P2 is not a format it is only media that stores many types of formats. A Panasonic HVX200 can record 81 different formats of video onto a P2 card. At this point AVC-I appears to be the BetaSP killer.”

Rennie,

Thank you for pointing this out, although I do understand the difference, I use the term format probably a little looser than I should.

[Rennie] “This whole thread is reminiscent of posts from 2 years ago prior to the release of the HVX200. (P2 had already been in use in SD ENG cameras for a year by then)”

Well, you are talking about the HVX200 and for all practical purposes, that is sort of in a league of it’s own. What I am referring to are the larger high end cameras such as F900, Varicam and HPX3000. Smaller cameras will probably continue to be very innovative and that is a big reason of my concern. P2 was initially introduced with the HVX200 and nothing else. It has obviously come a long way since then and according to Barry Greens statistics is the hottest selling media today. I think that is all great. But what about tomorrow?

I am asking this question with the perspective that 12 years ago, no one could shoot professional video without serious capitol. Now, Joe Video can start his own production company for under $10k. To answer my own question from a previous post, I don’t think there will ever be another true “stadard” like BetaSP was. There will continue to be new technologies and new innovations. Even if P2 becomes universally accepted, how long could that possibly last? I guarantee that the other big companies are not going to roll over and wallow in defeat. No, they will come up with something better.

Let me be clear, I am not “anti” P2. Just the opposite, I have been a huge advocate for it as far as moving in the right direction. I just don’t feel that it is going to be “the” solution for HD. I seem to be pretty much alone in that opinion here on this forum, but that’s ok. You all obviously have very strong feelings about this media and I believe that will attribute to its ongoing success. Hopefully you can all prove me wrong. I have had many of the same feelings about the Red One camera, but that is for another day and another forum. Either way, P2… moving into high end cameras.. still not convinced that it’s not too high of a risk for serious investment yet.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN