Bob Zelin
7
COW Coins
Forum Replies Created
-
Hi Joel –
you are simply out of your mind if you intend to continue to archive onto a VHS format. But of course, if you are looking for a playback VCR to offload old tapes –Sony SVO-5800
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
you state –
“Because I estimated that the cameras were more or less the same when calculating the cost of storage, I used the RED Weapon Helium 8K which is the graduate school’s thesis camera. The numbers below reflect that camera’s memory/storage needs.”so you need 24 TB of storage, and you will be shooting in 8K. This ain’t gonna happen with a single drive.
You are also a single user. I have no idea if your Media Composer system is a Mac or a PC, and if it’s a Mac, is it Thunderbolt 2 or Thunderbolt 3 –as a rough estimate – you need a minimum of this – The Promise R6
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1331249-REG/promise_technology_p3r6hd24wus_pegasus3_r6_24tb_6_bay.html/?ap=y&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiMrWoJjy3gIVDtbACh3oHA8pEAYYASABEgLO4_D_BwE&lsft=BI%3A514&smp=Yand here is the G-Speed shuttle with 24 TB –
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1381752-REG/g_technology_0g10072_g_speed_shuttle_thunderbolt_3_4_bay_24tb.html
but it’s only 4 drives, so you are better off with the Promise for pretty much identical price.and here is a 6 bay OWC – it ain’t gonna get cheaper than this –
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/thunderbay-6/thunderbolt-3Now if you say “wow – these are all over $1500, isn’t there anything that I can use for about $500” –
the lesson here is that it costs money to be in business, and it cost money to make an indie film.
As a matter of fact – everything costs money. The amount you will pay for storage is cheaper than one months
rent in NY or LA, and you will use this storage for years. You tell me – which is a better investment.Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Hi Fay –
I have nothing constructive to say here –
1) you are shooting with a RED camera – and I assume with RED lenses. Doesn’t that cost a fortune of money ?
2) you are using AVID Media Composer – isn’t this the most expensive of all the editing systems ?
3) you have not stated if this is going to be used for shared storage, or a single edit station.A single 4 TB Seagate Ironwolf drive is $120. Eight drives x 120 = $960 for 32 TB of storage for an eight bay RAID array that will become 24 TB after RAID 6.
You mention the most expensive cameras – Arri Alexa, RED and Sony F55, and you mention media composer.
You also mention that you are in graduate school – exactly how much do you, or your parents spend for tuition to go get your graduate degree ? I think a little more than $960 to complete your film.Let me give you some advice, that you will not appreciate. Lets say you get a top grade for this film, and your professors say this is the best thing that they ever saw. Your grade, and your professors opinions mean absolutely nothing. Getting your graduate degree will mean absolutely nothing to any employer, or any movie studio. The ONLY thing that will matter is the quality of your film. I don’t know if you are the producer, or the editor, or what – perhaps all of them. but in the REAL WORLD, no one gives a crap about your degree and your school – even if it’s UCLA, or AFI, or NYU. All that matters is your film, and how good it is – and how good your editing, DP ability, etc is.
Forget your school. Buy the storage that you need. It’s the only thing that is going to be important moving forward. You can do with your degree exactly what I did with my degree – wipe my you know what with it. No one will care – ever. Not unless you are applying for a university job, or a government job.
And while you are steaming – download the free AJA Data Calc on your smart phone – this will show you exactly how much storage you need. And how many minutes (or hours) based on your compression codec.
How do you go lower on the amount of storage that you need ? Be more selective when someone says “lets try it again”. Rehearse your actors. This is not a reality show. I am shocked when I see how much footage comes back from a multi camera reality shoot. How do you speed up your transcodes – well that costs money too. Some of the big boys use the expensive CineDeck, which will record multiple codecs at one time, but most people – even pro’s can’t afford to do this. Finding efficient transcode programs (like Divergent Media Edit Ready) will increase your transcode time for the proxies, but it’s no miracle. This all takes time.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Raymond or Fajar –
ProRes 1080i 29.97 is about 20 MB/sec. So 3 – 4 streams unrendered is 60 – 80 MB/sec. Will this work over a 1G connection that can provide 100 MB/sec. Maybe – theoretically. But when you watch a performance graph when asking for this bandwidth, you don’t get a nice flat line of 100 MB/sec – you get spikes and peaks. So with 4 streams, you might get stuttering.
Either way, you MUST use the 10G port on the QNAP (or Synology or anything else) to go to a 10G switch, and your clients must have independent ports (not sharing the internet ) to go to this 10G switch. So your “savings” of not getting a 10G adaptor for the computer is –
$175 for a Thunderbolt 3 Mac computer
$100 for a Windows 10 computer
and (unfortunately) $500 for a Thunderbolt 2 Mac computer.To insure you have the ability to playback 4 streams of ProRes 29.97 1080i, I would get the 10G adaptors.
The total aggregate READ speed of the TVS-873e is about 1000 MB/sec, so if you have 4 guys all using a total of
400 MB/sec, then YES, all the editors can read the same media at the same time, without getting stuttering.
Make sure to get ALL EIGHT DRIVES (all 7200 RPM) in a single static volume. IF you do not purchase the optional 10G card for the QNAP ($89 bucks – it’s the QXG-10G1T) and a 10G switch, you are wasting your time and money.Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
https://www.wd.com/en-gb/products/external-storage/my-book-duo.html
this is the product – correct ?
It clearly states in this spec sheet that you will get 360 MB/sec performance.
It also clearly states that it comes pre formatted for Windows, not Mac (HFS+, APFS, or ExFat)
“Formatted NTFS for out-of-the-box compatibility with Windows® 10, Windows 8.1/8.0 or Windows 7. Requires reformatting for other operating systems.”You did not say what codec you are using for 4K. You could have the worlds fastest RAID array – cost no object.
Premiere is not going to playback GoPro 4K or DJI Drone 4K and not be “sticky”. You have to transcode.As per AJA Data Calc – ProRes 29.97 4K-2160 is 88.06 MB/sec. ProRes 4K Ultra HD is 82.56 MB/sec.
There are millions of variations of 4K – based on the camera compression codec, and your frame rate.
It’s not just “4K”. It’s like saying “look – I just want to paint the door on the outside of my house” – and then you go to the paint store, and there are millions of selections with different types of paint. Nothing is easy – that’s why people pay you to do this.Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Eric writes –
I love Hedge, but am slightly wary of their Canister LTFS product simply because they are a smaller company. Even though LTFS is open source, where will technology and companies be in 5 and then 10 years? What happens if a newer technology comes out meant to replace LTFS?reply –
really? You do know that YoYotta is a tiny company. So exactly who do you want to rely on?
Lets pick Tolis Group (who does not support the LTFS format) –
look at this recent post on Creative Cow –
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/330/2897what do you think about that ?
How long was Cache-A in business ? ProMax bought them. Does ProMax support Cache-A products now ?
OH – I know – you can get Archiware P5
https://p5.archiware.com/products/p5-backupit’s about $5000 for the software – and now you buy the LTO –
how about this –
https://www.gblabs.com/products/EasyLTO/It’s about $10,000
how about this –
https://storagedna.com
I understand that their SUPPORT CONTRACT is about $4000 per year (perhaps I am wrong about this) –so you tell me, Eric – what is the right decision ?
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Jerezy writes –
In theory yes, but the cost of the hard drives on a $ per TB basis since they consolidated to only two main manufacturers is not declining that rapidly, if say a 6TB drive cost $300 and they introduced 8TB and 10TB hard drives they would come in at $400 and $500 respectively, gone are the days when people went crazy buying 1 TB drives and I more wisely would buy two 750GB ones for the exact same price. Hard drive prices have to decline by 50% every 2.0-2.5 years to keep pace with LTO storage density roughly doubling each new generation for pretty much the same priceREPLY – well, in November 2018, a Seagate Ironwolf 7200 RRPM 6TB drive costs $184. And to keep going with your model, a 10 TB costs $299, not $500. For $500 you get the new 14 TB drives, and those prices of course will come down within 6 months.
Nearline also offers the ability of INSTANT ACCESS. No one has to restore a nearline archive. And if you are not using the LTFS tape format, good luck trying to restore any LTO tape (like LTO1, LTO 2, LTO 3) that has been done in a proprietary format, whose manufacturer (like Cache-A) has gone out of business.
One of the downfalls of LTO, which has been greatly simplified by wonderful companies like Hedge, YoYotta and Imagine Products, is that the RESTORE process needs to be easy. The minute that any technology product becomes someone’s career (oh – we are experts in LTO archive) – then this technology is useless. In 2018, people want stuff to be easy, and not require an IT professional to assist them with it, or have an IT staff person just to restore an archive.
The observance of Zip drives AIT tape, DLT tape, DAT tape, and early LTO makes all of this very nerve racking.
And the recent release of LTO 8 tape does not make people feel more secure – only because it’s not very backward compatible. Will LTO 10 read an LTO 8 tape when it comes out.But do drives fail – OF COURSE THEY DO. And I see on these very forums, some poor slob with his old Rorke Data array, or Apple Xserve RAID array, or Sonnet Port Multiplier array, or Medea RAID 3 array, saying “I can’t read my data anymore”
So drives are no miracle. But they certainly last 5 – 6 years, and if you simply are tired of making continuing investments into our business, then you should NOT be in this business anymore.I look at guys that have spend a fortune in cameras, only to have new wonderful cameras from companies like Blackmagic come out, that run circles around their old expensive “old gear”. I often bring up the $80,000 Media Composers, and $100,000 AVID Symphonies. You know what you can do with these ? Put them in the trash bins.
And this applies to the original $400,000 Davinci Resolve systems, Ampex ADO’s, Chryon’s, GVG Kaleidoscopes, Quantel everything, and countless other deadly expensive products that have basically put countless people out of business because of their massive investments, and not getting a good ROI on them.A current LTO 8 system from MLogic is about $6400 and that includes Hedge LTFS software. I love this product, and I love Hedge software. Will this give the purchaser of this product life beyond 2023 ? And the REAL question is –
will Thunderbolt 3 even exist in 2023 ? (the MLogic LTO 8 drive is Thunderbolt 3 interface only). For clarity – 2023 is 5 years from now – about the life of a nearline NAS.Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
near line is great.
systems from QNAP and Synology are dirt cheap, and drives are super reliable today. When you create a RAID 6 configuration, this allows for 2 drives to fail. So your backup “nearline” solution is RAID 6, and your master system is RAID 6, so you can have FOUR drives fail, and you will still have your data intact. Of course, you should change your defective drive the second that it happens.So will a RAID array like near line storage last for 30 years ? Of course not. But neither will LTO. I don’t care if it’s “theoretical” for 30 years. No one will write drivers for products like the Cache-A for example. So what do you do with all of your LTO 4 and LTO 5 (and now LTO 6) tapes. You create the LTO 6 archive. You keep it in a storage vault.
Your place burns down, and today you can only get LTO 8 drives, which will not read an LTO 4, or LTO 5 or LTO 6.
So someone will come back and say “well, that is ridiculous, you can still find LTO 5 and LTO 6 drives out there” –
well what about 10 years from now – or even 5 years from now. Can you find an LTO 4 except on eBay ?Everything becomes obsolete. Nothing is going to last for 30 years. The appeal of cloud site storage is that “someone else does it for you”. So all the big cloud companies are continuously migrating their technology to new technology, as it approaches obsolescence.
This is why near line storage is appealing. You keep your near line system with it’s 5 year warrantee drives for 5 – 6 years, and in 5 – 6 years, you buy a NEW SYSTEM (this time with 20 TB drives – because 14 TB drives are out right now for $499 a piece, and in 5 years, I assure you 20 TB drives will be available) – and you migrate your data to the new larger Near line system.
If you say – “well, I don’t want to keep buying new stuff every 5 – 6 years – I want it to last for 30 years” – this is my advice to you. Open up a sandwich shop, near video production facilities. Because that meat slicer and refrigerator may in fact last for 30 years. But NOTHING that is “technology” is going to keep going for 30 years, or 20 years, and if by some miracle it lasts for 10 years today – well, it’s a Miracle.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
replies below –
a) what about mac pro 2010 pcie cards? are they a delicate piece in the chain or it is just needed to have a cheap one 10gbe?
REPLY – The Sonnet Presto 10GbaseT card is $260 and works great inside the 2010 Mac Pro. You cannot use
the Sonnet Presto Solo 10G or QNAP QXG-10G1T unless you have macOS 10.13.3 or later running on your
2010 Mac Pro.and for the mac mini? assuming they would be used just for audio recording and edit, is it enough the standard rj45port 1gbe? (assuming to use internet via wifi only and dedicate the rj45 just to the storage) – say that because thunderbolt port is used for 2nd display ☹
REPLY – you need a dedicated network port for shared storage. WiFi is too slow. If you just want 1G speeds, you get a thunderbolt to ethernet adaptor ($29) or a USB to Ethernet adaptor ($29) and use that for internet access (or use WiFi). You use the native ethernet port for connection to the dedicated switch for the shared storage.
You will get 100 MB/sec, which is enough for audio, graphics, and 1080i HD video, but not 4K. If you want a 10G connection, for an old Mac Mini, you get a Sonnet Twin 10G – $499. If you have a NEW Mac Mini with Thunderbolt 3, you get a Sonnet Solo 10G for $175b) in this config is it possible to work from remote (internet outside the lan) without downloading anything? (talking about audio projects or video projects using low bitrate proxies)
REPLY – you can’t edit over the internet. George Lucas and Steven Speilberg cannot edit over the internet.
I can setup the QNAP with a VPN so you can mount your drive directly on your MacBook Pro remotely, but you are at the mercy of your internet speed connection – both where you are, and where your QNAP is located.c) supposing to use a backup nas, it would be possible to use the second NAS as:
– backup purpose AND load bandwidth balancing? (I assume to use 2 identic nas and using together)
– backup hardware (if 1st nas has hardware failure) (I assume to use 2 identic nas and using together)REPLY – a single QNAP or Synology with 8 drives is fast enough to do anything that you want, including 8K editing.
You do not need load balancing. For backup, you buy a second system. This second system can be in a remote location (like your home) – but again – you are at the mercy of your internet connection speed.All the backup software comes for free with the QNAP. All the remote software, and VPN software comes for free with the QNAP.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
an update on what topic. You are not clear.
The wonderful companies that make LTO software today are Imagine Products, YoYotta, and Hedge.
Thunderbolt LTO drives can be purchased from Magstor, and MLogic.Today, LTO 8 is the “latest thing” – but LTO 8 cannot read an LTO 5 or LTO 6 tape. It will only read LTO 7 and LTO 8.
As for near line storage, QNAP and Synology are the most popular products.
If you have further questions – please ask SPECIFIC questions, and I will answer them.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com