Bill Davis
Forum Replies Created
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[Simon Ubsdell] “Who steals my purse steals trash; ’tis something, nothing;
‘Twas mine, ’tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.”Exactly.
The public impression of YOU, Simon, – a person making truly useful contributions to the creative arts – should never have their “good name filched” in ANY way.
And FCP X (and the dedicated team of real people working on it) – should have the same consideration, perhaps.
All I’m saying.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
Fair enough, Simon.
Consider any implied criticism fully and publicly retracted.
I freely acknowledge that you came back into the discussion subsequent to your initial post, and made it SUPER clear that you were NOT saying X was flawed.
Just please understand this IS still EXACTLY how those initial “FCP X is NOT a professional tool” memes got started in 2011. Instead of saying from square one “I don’t get what APPLE is trying to do here.” The messaging that started to catch fire was that X was once again flawed for professional use. (Thank god at least THIS TIME Conan didn’t hear about it!)
What breaks loose in public today is often a crapshoot in the world of PR.
AGAIN, you were very clear in your subsequent messaging.
And, I really do appreciate that.
Peace.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
And please don’t forget you have a DIRECT LINE to the Apple FCP X Team in the form of the report plumbed directly into the FCP X menu bar.
If this bothers you, I would expect you to have reported that fact directly to the X development team.
The more reports that arrive at the OFFICIAL problem reporting system, the faster things get fixed.
Let your voice add to others and be heard.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
Well, I tried to.
Then, like most of ACTUAL engineering – the more I read, the more complex and befuddling the topic appeared to become.
Simon presented it as simply “they should have simply divided THIS by THAT underneath this control – and they messed things up because they didn’t do that.”
Then others expanded my thinking into color spaces, how the math actually changes depending on whether the software is in REC 709 or REC 2020 – and now, it seems to me that the solution might be a BOATLOAD more complex than I first imagined.
The good news, is that there are ACUTAL electrical engineers and software designers, who are surely looking at this now – and I’m sure THEY will figure it out.
On a personal, note, you’ve also got to understand something…
It REALLY felt like another “here we go again” on this subject to me: Magnetic Timeline: READY-FIRE-AIM— Trackless Audio: READY-FIRE-AIM —NOW it’s “Apple has screwed up color correction in 10.4 – READY-FIRE-AIM…
The internet is AWASH today with READY-FIRE-AIM. And those folks were out in force in the first two days of this discussion by accepting the simple narrative: “How could Apple allow such a fundamental functional SCREWUP in the new tool.”
Now, thanks to Simon, Oliver and many others, those first few days of “HEY, THIS IS REALLY BROKEN” voices have quieted a bit- as the discussion has revealed how it MIGHT be more complex than it appeared at first blush – and now perhaps, time and reasoned discussion and solutions can take over.
Don’t get me wrong, I KNOW it still may be BROKEN – FULL STOP.
And, yes, my personal triggering is definitely a factor . After all, THIS is the place I argued for years that Apple had a reason that they did THOSE things people were Ready-Fire-Aiming about originally. I’d even argue that the view largely accepted now that the dust has cleared is that they had perfectly legitimate reasons for doing all of those things.
But that READY-FIRE-AIM environment is STILL largely our new reality.
And that means it’s more critical than ever to go beyond just the “shouting fire” stage.
Which is where I kinda thought this things was headed in the first days of this thread.
Just my 2 cents.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
Lowercase variables FTW – but then you can’t {{{shout}}} them in print.
Truly a first world problem.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Oliver Peters] “If you want to see how the color wheels are supposed to work (correctly), open a fresh Library and set it to wide gamut. Then create a 2020PQ project. Now import some log footage, preferably Alexa LogC. The built-in LUT will be active. Apply color wheels and grade. Behaves as one would expect. In wide gamut Rec2020PQ.”
Wait, what?
The same controls are NOT disfunctional in one mode with one set of files, but they are disfunctional in a different mode with other files?
That’s kinda weird isn’t it?
If the color correction algorithm is wrong, it seems like it would be wrong everywhere – but I don’t know enough to have a useful opinion – as I’ve noted from day one.
The crowd here obviously feels this tool is broken.
Others, elsewhere, apparently don’t think so.
If Apple feels this is an issue that needs addressing, I suspect they’ll address it in one of a few obvious ways…
Change it to work more like you guys expect.
Issue guidance on how to use THIS new tool.
Or ignore the whole thing and see if their users adapt to it just like I’ve adapted to the way keyframes function in X – which hardly anyone feels is ideal – but still lets me get my jobs done just fine.
Time will tell.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Michael Gissing] “So why another new thread? Why keep posting quotes that have already been refuted? Why not adress the issue of inconsistency which is the core of this? “
Because I don’t believe I am. (Posting such quotes)
I’m not convinced they have been.
I’m hearing mosty opinions by non engineers here – and reading what appear to be facts with specific references elsewhere.
To wit: (within the last few hours in that other discussion)
Again from Phil P.
Guys, there’s no sweat and no harm in discussing; this is how everyone gets smarter. I personally enjoy this, as it forced me to brush up my video standards knowledge, having spent most of my recent time dealing with (digital cine) camera files.
Indeed, the wheels, from what I can tell, function differently in standard 2020, PQ and HLG. The reason is simple: There is a standardized OETF for 2020 that pegs diffuse white to studio monitors that are typically set at 120 NITs— the same as 709. And because there is no notion of ‘specular’ white in SDR (remember that Rec 2020 is also an SDR format), it doesn’t matter if your display is set to 400 NITs or 100 NITs — you’ll see a natural-looking image as long as the display is calibrated to that OETF.
Still, in a professional environment, you should set your monitors to 120 NITs and operate in a dim room, even if your displays are capable of 400 or a 1000 NITs. The reason is that you might get into issues even on good monitors, with the dark portion of the tone curve, and your perception of contrast will be altered. Film editors need to operate on displays or projectors set at 48 NITs, which requires a totally dark room.
When it comes to HDR, there is a conundrum facing software designers, the same as it is facing users: To what target display are you mastering to ? Because different so-called “HDR” displays are not capable of the same dynamic range, the industry tends to gravitate around different mastering levels — 400, 1000 and 4000 NITs for HDR. If your encoding is for Dolby Vision, that system handles well the problem at the display level. Other systems less.
So there you are, doing an edit in WideGamut (2020 chromaticities) and HDR PQ (OETF). Maybe you got footage from a properly converted ARRI raw file and you have a pretty good PQ-encoded image that extends to 10,000 NITs. What do you do with it ? Do you grade it to full range, or to 4000 NITs ? Or to 1000 NITs ? You’ll be tempted to grade it to whatever your own HDR display is capable of, but contrary to standardized broadcast displays, we’re not there yet, in a number of HDR setups. The industry has yet to come to terms.
So put yourself in Apple’s shoes. They need to support HDR and in a way that makes sense. What makes sense at this stage is to treat your HDR material as full range and to apply linear transformations to it, that are mathematically invertible. They use Offset, Lift, Gamma and Gain in PQ. In SDR 2020, from what I can tell, they use offsets for master and shadows, and gain for midtones and highlights, but going through a weighting function (that’s why the effect looks non-linear). This is consistent with general practice for SMH, although there is no “standard” per se (nothing SMPTE, EBU, ASC or AMPAS have recommended). Resolve uses arbitrary bezier polynomials to split the Luma range, and that’s their approach.
In the meantime, their design intent is that if you’re grading a 709 project, things will look and perform normal. If you grade in SDR 2020, things will operate normally, similarly to 709. When you grade in HDR, things will behave as best they can, given the current nature of the medium…
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Phil continues, but I’ll stop there because this whole conversation is getting boring. The point is I feel like I’m getting higher quality explanations with more explanatory detail – all buttressed with references to textbooks and SMPTE publications encouraging me to NOT rely on opinions about this stuff, but rather go determine the truth for myself (to the extent, at least, I’m capable of understanding it.) ELSEWHERE.
This is supposed to be a conversation seeking the TRUTH about the allegation that a piece of software may have BAD DESIGN at its core.
It’s software I make my living with.
So making good choices about it is important to me.
If you have counter material from equivalent sources arguing that Adobe or AVID or Resolves methods of doing this stuff are better – bring them to the table. Seriously. Please.
What will help EVERYONE is the truth.
Not defending anyone’s opinion silos – most assuredly including mine.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Michael Gissing] “I think you are grasping at straws by copy pasting rationalisations that are not coming to terms with that fundamental inconsistency.”
Michael, with all due respect, I am “grasping” at absolutely nothing.
I am listening to multiple voices, and trying to discern who’s opinions make the MOST rational sense. That’s ALL.
My personal bias about this tool is real, but it comes from a history where for months upon months upon months people told me this tool “worked wrong” – when in fact, it was improving my results at every turn.
You will forgive me then for treating THIS debate the same way.
If Apple is “wrong” about the SCIENCE of how they have elected to process Color in 10.4 – then that will come out. Because SCIENCE is absolutely impartial. The math works or it doesn’t.
If, on the other hand, they have merely elected to apply perfectly accurate math in a way that a different interface designer might have done differently – but it still gets the results the user wants – that’s a whole different kettle of fish.
Overall, Apples stuff, in my experience just WORKS.Typically brilliantly. That’s a fact their marketplace results have verified.
A thousand times in 2011 I read: X just doesn’t work right. Ignoring all that was, in hindsight, one of the smartest business choices I have ever made.
If X is ACTUALLY somehow “broken” regards to their color implementation, I have every confidence that they will acknowledge that and fix it. They have done so with reproducible bugs and mistakes over and over again.
Heck, I’d be VERY surprised if somebody either in Apple PR, working for some virtual internet clipping service, or even on the Pro Apps team itself : doesn’t have eyes in this very thread.
These are, after all, VERY public discussions – archived forever.
If they change things, deeply, cosmetically or otherwise – OR if they don’t – it should speak volumes.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Steve Connor] “Well apart from the fact that it has the clearest discussion of all the forums about the Colour wheels “issue””
Sorry, but that’s not even remotely close to true.
I’ve learned 10 times more about this issue in other forums compared to this one. The arguments on BOTH sides have been sharper, science based, and take into account things that appear to be relevant (such as how Apple might be trying to accommodate both Rec 2020 AND Rec 2100 factors in their software approach). (My ignorant layman’s shorthand)
The only thing so have come away from these discussions feeling totally confident about is that this whole topic is nowhere as simple as the initial “everyone knows you just divide this by that and you’ll then be accurate” Frame this thing kinda took on when it first appeared.
It appears that software engineering science is pretty damn complex and doesn’t lend itself to simple solutions.
Who knew?
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
The Facebook group is open to all.
10,000 plus members there, and he’s been happy to engage with anyone about this stuff, openly.
That he’s not here, is a shame. But probably an artifact of overall popularity of locations for information debate and discussion in the FCP X community.
This was once one of the MOST popular hubs of that.
Realistically, sadly, (honestly, crushingly to me personally) not so much anymore.
Sigh.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.