Andy Patterson
Forum Replies Created
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[Neil Goodman] “[andy patterson] “I agree except you don’t see Premiere Pro user saying FCPX uses old laggy coding.”
But you said that it cant. now you agree? OK.”
In the video below (at 16:45) Max Yuryev states that the 2017 iMac cannot playback the 4.5K clip at full resolution without dropping frames. That is not to say a more expensive 2017 iMac could not play it back without dropping frames. I took your word for it that some 2017 iMacs can play it back without dropping frames.
OK? : )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLF3g2zF3qs
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[John Rofrano] ” [andy patterson] “They are disabled on my Windows 10 system. ”
Yes, but for how long? I disabled them on my Windows 10 VM and then one day I’m shutting it down and it says, “please don’t turn off your computer, Windows is updating” and when I rebooted and checked, Windows Update was running again. So it doesn’t stay disabled. Mind you… the setting was still on Disable but the process as Running! That is a scary thought!”
My system never fails to shut down because of updates. Did you disable the updates as shown in the video below? I am thinking you did not.
[John Rofrano] ” [andy patterson] “Vista and Window 8 worked great.”
Windows Vista was the laughing stock of the computer industry. Even Microsoft admitted it was horrible. Windows 7 was rushed out to make Vista go away. Windows 8 started the Metro debacle which is why I stuck with my Windows 7 desktop.”
I think you might be confused. How was the Metro Mode a debacle? It actually worked great. In fact the iPad iOS ripped off some of the feature of the Windows 8 Metro Mode. Windows 10 still has the Metro (touch screen) GUI. It is slightly different. Also Windows Vista worked just fine for myself and many others. Windows Vista actually gave Premiere Pro a little better performance than Windows 7. You will have to trust me on that one.
[John Rofrano] “Yes, just the other day in fact. I have Bootcamp with Windows 7 on my Mac Pro because I still have software that I must support and it wouldn’t boot. I had to run FDISK C: /F to fix corrupt files. That’s a big problem with Windows that macOS doesn’t have to worry about”
I am thinking you never used DOS to partition and format a hard drive. You wouldn’t use FDISK to fix corrupt files. I think you are thinking of CHKDISK. Having said that my files don’t go corrupt.
[John Rofrano] “Windows has nothing like this and depending on how many times your Windows PC locks up and has to be cold started, files will become corrupt and it will stop booting. You should run FDISK (or the GUI version) regularly on a Windows PC to catch file corruption before it gets too bad.”
It will stop booting? I never had that happen. If someone gets a virus maybe (just maybe) but that would not be because of Windows if the system gets hacked. I don’t have my editing PC on the internet. A Mac can also get a virus. Also you should not run FDISK on Windows PC regularly. In fact there has not been a need to use FDISK for over 15 years. As I stated earlier FDISK is a DOS utility for creating a partition and formatting the hard drive. If you used FDISK daily that might explain why you had so many issues.
Friends shouldn’t let friends FDISK : )
[John Rofrano] “I also spent a fair amount of time assigning Interrupts to my SoundBlaster card on the ISA BUS (before the plug-n-play PCI Bus was invented) Those were fun days debugging why your new game wouldn’t run only to find out that your new graphics card and audio card were sharing the same interrupt. lol”
The PCI (Plug and Play) bus still made use of IRQs as seen in the video below. Anyone can talk about DOS, IRQs and even ISA slots but how any people have actually seen them in the wild?
Having said that I miss my jumpers and dip switches : )
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[Bill Davis] “For my work, the speed of working with proxies until the shape of the cut is determined – particularly knowing that I can play with scene order, juxtaposition and move things that “feel adjacent” into that type of adjacency on a whim, and instantly undo or re-rearrange them – seems like something I’d be very hard pressed to give up.”
I can do all that without needing to use proxy files on a $850.00 PC using Premiere Pro. For collaboration projects proxies can be useful.
[Bill Davis] “A solid proxy workflow encourages that type of experimentation.”
So does working with camera raw files using Premiere Pro. Don’t get me wrong I know FCPX can work with raw files in real-time if you use an iMac Pro vs an Apple Mac Book.
[Bill Davis] “I spent so many years seeing my timelines as assemblies tied to RENDER files that went offline if I moved anything out to place – to have the freedom to move anything anywhere without penalty is one of the greatest joys of modern editing.
That’s the way I see it anyway.”
The days of yesteryear are a thing of the past.
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[John Rofrano] “3.27 minutes for FCP X and a wapping 58.42 minutes for Premiere Pro! (FCP X is ~18x faster !!!) Even running Premiere Pro on a Dell XPS with the same specs it took 18.51 minutes which still makes FCP X 5.6x faster than Premiere!”
It seems Premiere Pro works better on a PC.
[John Rofrano] “It’s not about the hardware speeds and feeds, it’s about how much work you can get done with the hardware and software combined.”
Quick Sync works well and can give a laptop a huge performance boost. Keep in mind a Mac Book can render faster to h.264 than a Mac Pro.
[John Rofrano] “So you don’t need some big behemoth of a PC with fans screaming like a 747 on takeoff when you have software that is optimized for the hardware it’s running on like we have on the Mac.”
FCPX renders h.264 faster on the old iMac than the new iMac Pro. I have told you already there is nothing special about FCPX other than it uses Intel’s Quick Sync. Try editing any other coded beside h.264/pmeg4/avchd and post the benhcmarks between FCPX and Premiere Pro. Don’t give Apple more credit then they deserve. FCPX only has an advantage over Premiere Pro when using mediocre laptop specs.
[John Rofrano] “PC developers need to make their software work with 100’s of different GPU’s. Mac developers have a handful of configurations to support so the software can be extremely optimized for the platform.”
Edius can match the benchmarks of FCPX when using h.264 because Edius uses Inel’s Quick Sync. In fact some PC programs used Intel’s Quick Sync before FCPX.
[John Rofrano] “The chart above speaks for itself. Premiere Pro runs better on Windows than on a Mac but it still doesn’t runs nearly as fast as Final Cut Pro X on a Mac so yea, if you are a Premiere user, Windows should be your platform of choice and you should buy the biggest beefiest PC you can afford. FCP X editors don’t need that much power to get even more work done on a Mac.”
I’ll put my 4 year old Haswell PC against your system and I certainly don’t have a big and beefy system ; )
[John Rofrano] “The problem is not PC vs Mac as much as it’s Premiere running better on a PC. Since I don’t use any Adobe products, the Mac gives be both aesthetics and performance. ????”
I think that is the problem. You don’t use a Windows PC or Premiere Pro but you will post about Premiere Pro and Windows being sluggish and problematic but the people that happen to use Windows and Premiere Pro don’t make the same comments. Why do you think that is? Why do Mac users who do not use a Windows PC or Premiere Pro complain more about Windows PC and Premiere Pro than the people who actually use them? Why do you think that is?
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[Neil Goodman] “Uh it can and it does using a 2015 Imac so I’m not sure what your talking about, the 2017 should handle it with ease. Obviously each person’s setups will have different variables affecting playback (drive speed being the biggest factor IMO) but it’s definitely doable and NO Im not going to make you a video of it.”
I agree except you don’t see Premiere Pro user saying FCPX uses old laggy coding. Edius has no GPU acceleration so spending $800.00 on an 8 core CPU would be better than spending $350.00 on a CPU and $450.00 on a GPU. That is why for some people FCPX works better on their Mac Pro but for others Premiere Pro works better. I have always said they both work just fine.
[Neil Goodman] “Premiere Pro can play back the same clips as well, but in actual editing on a timeline I have to drop resolution to 1/4 to get smooth playback of my sequence so take that whats its worth.”
It depends on the system. You stated that yourself already. When using AVCHD FCPX does have an advantage over Premiere Pro but not Edius. FCPX also has an advantage over Premiere Pro more often than not when using a laptop. Once you get a $1,200.00 desktop PC Premiere Pro might have an advantage. Do you know why that is?
[Neil Goodman] “At the end of the day it’s very insignificant to me whether my computer can play back 4k+ natively anyways because I dont cut with native media so I have a feeling this 2015 Imca is going to last me a very long time.”
I am not saying your system does not work. I am saying people over hype FCPX and the Apple products. My PC is using an old Haswell CPU clocked at 3.4 GHZ. It can play 6 layers of native AVCHD1080P with color correction at full resolution and 8 layers of Red One files at 1/4 resolution. My system can play back a single native 4K R3D file at full resolution without dropping frames. I say it does not drop frames because they playback is smooth. The drop frame indicator will go on after about 15 seconds of play. The bottom line is you would never notice it dropped a frame or two if I let it play for 5 minutes. Having said that my CPU and GPU are working extremely hard to play it back at full resolution so I set playback to 1/4 resolution. I don’t doubt I could playback 8 layers of 8K R3D files if I drop down to 1/8 resolution.
I guess what I am asking is if FCPX can playback 4K R3D files on a $8,000.00 iMac Pro at full resolution without dropping frames should I be impressed? Wouldn’t the fact that Premiere Pro can playback 4K R3D files at full resolution on a $1,400.00 gaming PC seem more impressive? Keep in mind many people claim you need an $8000.00 HP workstation to edit native AVCHD or R3D files using Premiere Pro. That statement is not true but many people insist it is and they also insist Premiere Pro uses old and sluggish coding even though reality says differently. It is OK to like FCPX and the Apple products but I myself don’t over hype them nor should anyone else.
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[Tom Sefton] “iMac vs iMac pro, and for some reason there is still an angle to post about buying an off the shelf gaming pc.”
The context is more FCPX VS Premiere Pro. FCPX cannot play back 4K R3D files at full resolution without dropping frames using a 2017 iMac. I thought Premiere Pro had the old and laggy code base and FCPX was custom crafted for the iMac. I think we can put that myth to rest.
I know it is fun to say Premiere Pro has an old and outdated code case but reality says otherwise : )
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[Neil Goodman] “Please stop trying to turn everything into a PC/MAC debate. People in the market for an Imac Pro at 5,000+ are clearly not looking for a 1200 gaming PC whether it can outperform the IMACP or not.”
I was commenting on FCPX VS Premiere Pro not Mac VS PC. Remember Premiere Pro has an old laggy code base : )
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[John Rofrano] “Here is my PC experience that I know has happened to others in one form or another: Two days before I was supposed to demo my software at the National Association of Broadcasters convention, Microsoft decided to apply a .Net Framework update to my PC which rendered my compiler useless (I’m a software developer). There I was with two days remaining to get on a plane and my software wouldn’t even compile! I was running around the shop trying to find a PC that hadn’t been updated to move my work to and had to install my complete development environment on it which wasted an entire day. That’s when I learned to turn off automatic updates and only allow an update to run after making a full backup of my computer in case something goes wrong (because eventually it will).”
System restore did not work? I always have automatic updates disabled. The Mac OS X updates can also cause problems.
[John Rofrano] “Guess what? Windows 10 doesn’t allow you to turn off automatic updates! Oh, you can disable it in the Services app all you want and Microsoft will mysteriously re-enable it from time-to-time and continue to download updates without telling you because they obviously know best. (I’ve had it happen to me on VM’s that I maintain for compatibility testing) Wait until you have a critical customer deadline and your PC stops working because Microsoft has applied an update without your consent that breaks the software that you depending on for your business. Because it will happen if you use Windows long enough. It has happened to me several times in my 33 years of using Windows since it was first introduced. Most of those times I’ve had a backup… once I didn’t. It only takes once to impact your business. Yes, this could happen with a Mac but so far, Apple has allowed me to choose when to apply an update and Time Machine keeps my Mac backup updated hourly.”
They are disabled on my Windows 10 system.
[John Rofrano] ”
Then there is reformatting your Windows computer and re-installing all of the software every 3 -4 years. Windows computers get slower over time because the Registry gets larger and larger with every software package that you install and uninstall. After a while, it gets corrupt and things start behaving badly. The only solution is a reformat. Anyone who has used Windows for several years has encountered this. Why do you think there are so many registry cleaners on the market? (some of which do more harm than good) It’s a horrible Microsoft design that Mac’s don’t have to deal with.”I don’t surf the internet on my editing PC. In fact I only connect to the internet about once every 30-40 days because of the creative cloud. My PC does not get slow. My Mac Mini has become a little slower since I bought it but it still edits video OK. I do a fresh reinstall about once every 2 years on my PC but not because the PC is slow. It is never slow. I do it for a fresh new installation of Creative Cloud. Keep in mind it is not hard. I do it 2 or 3 times total in the time I own the PC. The laptop I am using to write this has no antivirus or firewall. I go hog wild and willy nilly with my laptop when surfing the internet because there is no important information on it. I do a reformat on my laptop about once every 18 months. It does not need it but I like to do it.
[John Rofrano] “As I have said many times, you couldn’t pay me enough to work on a Windows computer again. I’ve only used a Mac for the past 4 years but the experience has been very enjoyable and nothing like the problems I had with Windows.”
You have to keep in mind not everyone has the same experience when using Windows as you have. Not to mention Apple has very limited options for the user.
[John Rofrano] “Windows 10 seems to be the worst with Microsoft declaring that it’s now a “service” that they continuously update.”
All operating systems get updates. Apple has been on OS X for over X years.
[John Rofrano] “Greg, I know you’ve been using Mac’s for 25 years so maybe you have similar stories and I respect that you probably do. Maybe I need to spend 30 years on the Mac to have those kind of stories? Check back with me in 2043 and we’ll compare notes.”
Obviously not everyone sees Windows as the nightmare from Washington. We will all chose what works best for our needs. Keep in mind there are Windows Enterprise installations that run year after year without fail.
[John Rofrano] “Hmmm… I have been using a PC for over 35 years! Let me give you my “PC Experience”: I used CP/M on my Apple ][+ with a Z80 card before the IBM PC was invented (the pre-cursor to PCDOS). I’ve used PCDOS 1.0 – 5.0, Windows 3.1, Windows 286/386, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Millennium, Windows NT, Windows XP, Windows 7, and Windows 10 (I wasn’t foolish enough to use Vista or 8.0). I’ve bought PC’s off the shelf. I’ve built my own expressly for video editing several times. I have pretty much seen it all. Maybe I’m not the norm? but what is?”
Vista and Window 8 worked great. Have you ever used FDISK? Have you ever changed the AGP aperture settings or the PCI latency settings?
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That is almost exactly what I would expect. FCPX has an advantage over Premiere Pro when editing h.264/AVCHD. Once you use any other codec FCPX has no advantage over Premiere Pro and in fact can perform worse. I would have expected the iMac to play back Red One R3D files at full resolution and also playback at 8K R3D files in better performance mode. There are PC for $1,200.00 that can playback 4 R3D files at full resolution. Does this mean FCPX has an old and outdated code base? I kid I kid : )
Never under estimate the power of Intel’s Quick Sync or a $1,200.00 gaming PC.
The PC below could playback 4K R3D files at full resolution using Premiere Pro as well as 8K R3D files. I admit you might need to drop down to 1/4 resolution for playback of 8K R3D files but the image quality would still look awesome.
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Can you remove the scale to frame size of sequence A prior to dragging and dropping them into sequence B and then scale to frame size the clips in sequence B?