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Yet Another 24p Question
So, I know that there have been hudreds of posts on the cow about this stuff, but they all seem to contridict eachother. I am editing a piece shot with the cool, yet frame confusing panasonic 24p.
The producer and director do not plan to go to film with this project. I am guessing it will go to tape (probably Digi-Beta), and DVD.
So, I was not on board for any of the pre-production. They chose to shoot 24p ADVANCED, which from what I have read is the setting that you should use if you are going to film, where as (and correct me if I am wrong…because there is a lot of contridicting info out there) if you are going to tape as your final format, then you should shoot in the standard 24p mode.
So, whether it should have been shot differently or not, I have footage shot with 24p ADVANCED. I have read on other posts that if you are using either modes but staying on tape you should just stay at 29.97. I have also read that if you are going to DVD then you would want to do a pulldown and make a 24p DVD (though, what is the difference if the dvd player is just going to interlace it in the end anyhow? Why not just take it in at 29.97). If this is true though, what if I want to go to tape and DVD…do I need seperate timelines? 29.97 for tape and 23.97 for a 24pDVD?
One more thing that I have read is that FCP does not read the flags on the tape correctly and so bringing it in with the 24p Advanced Easy setup setting is not a good idea, because it brings in the wrong frames…Should I bring it in just regular DV NTSC and then go to TOOLS>REMOVE ADVANED PULLDOWN?
If that is so, most of the tapes are already digitized using the 24p Advanced easy setup…will I have to make those clips offline and bring them in again at 29.97?
Everytime that I think I have this stuff figured out, I read something that confuses my whole grasp on things.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Eli Mavros
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7 Replies
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The link below might help you to understand the differences between 24p and 24p advanced a little better. The article was written by Graeme Nattress, who makes the best effects plugins for FCP. If anybody can put the information about 24p into perspective for you it’s Graeme.
Don’t let the title of the article fool you. There’s a section on 24p towards the bottom.
https://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/beyond_dv_nattress.html
– Don
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Dear Don,
Thanks for your reply. I am aware of Graeme’s great contribution to this forum and have indeed learned a lot from his posts, but unfortunately the stuff that he talks about on that link that you sent me is very general, and stuff that I know already. I am more interested in real world solutions on the subject rather than the explanations on why or why not to shoot 24p. I already have the footage and I cannot change how it was shot, but want to know what my best appoach is for handling it in regards to my delivery formats. Do you have any experience with the format that you might be able to give me some tips about? What workflow worked best for you? What kind of problems did you run into with your decided workflow? What would you do differently?Thanks,
Eli -
Sorry but I don’t have the real world info that you’re after. You might want to put out a call for Graeme’s expertise to address your particular questions. Maybe you could start a new thread with his name in the subject title. That’ll get his attention as well as others that are more experienced with the various aspects of 24P. I’ve got an XL2 but have not had a chance nor the need to shoot in 24P just yet. Graeme Nattress and you are in the same time zone (NYC and Ottawa, Ontario Canada) so that should make it easier to talk to him before the weekend if he’s around here tomorrow.
Good luck with your project.
ps I’m pretty sure your 24p footage was shot correctly for FCP editing. 24p for direct transfer to film and 24p advanced for editing in FCP. If you tell FCP what the footage frame rate is, it will “see” the 24P advanced flags that are buried in the data stream and will remove the pulldown automatically as it’s captured to the hard drive. But……wait for Graeme’s response to your new thread.
– Don
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My understanding is progressive is better for rendering to mpeg2 for dvds, ie you get better looking results. Apparently mpeg2 was designed for this purpose and with use on Hollywood films. Plus, it saves space on the disk to have it rendered as 24p.
I believe 24pa has true distinct frames where as 24pn has a blended frame in the mix somewhere. There was an article on this a while ago, but I have no idea where I read it. Maybe an older Dv magazine. Therefore, I believe 24pa is better for film out. 24pn is supposed to be a better option if you are not going to remove pulldown at all.
I believe then it is generally considered a better option for most NLEs if you have any plans on removing pulldown to shoot 24pa.
Now, I could be wrong about some or all of this, but I believe these were the rules. Hope that helps. -
Eli —
Your 24PA footage doesn’t have to be a problem. If I were you, I’d cut the project in 24P to protect for the DVD, then simply insert a pulldown for the 29.97 DV tape playout. See my post in the previous 24P thread — I referred the poster to p. 1443 in the online help on pulldown insertion.
As for capture, here’s what the Cow’s Noah Kadner has had to say:
https://www.larryjordan.biz/articles/lj_dvx_capture.html
Any other questions about this could probably be best answered in the Panasonic DVX100 forum.
Regards,
Walter Soyka -
Advanced sounds good to me. Get it into your system and remove the advanced pulldown, edit on a 23.98fps timeline and all is well for going to 24p DVD.
Going out to DigiBeta can be an issue as FCP only adds pulldown over firewire. Two ways around this – make a DV master and dub to DigiBeta, or use my Standards Conversion plugin http://www.nattress.com to add pulldown in a render and then go out to DigiBeta over SDI from, say, a Decklink card.
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP
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You guys are great; thank you for your advice. I have already started making some assemblies of the footage…if I now make my clips offline, recapture at 29.97, and then perform the pulldown removal, will I have troubles relinking my sequences? I don’t care if they are off by a few frames, because they are only assemblies…but I just don’t want to run into problems like fcp bugging out because the split frames are not in the same places as they were before, etc…
If I perform the pulldown removal and then edit in 24fps, will I not be able to recapture the clips for onlining with a kona card? Are the flags that the DVX100 puts in the 24pa footage only caried over firewire? I guess it really will not be a huge deal if I don’t recapture 10bit, because the film really isn’t going to have a lot of effects or graphics. Could I possibly take my final sequence, throw it into a 10bit seq at the end, do my titles and color correction, export it and then bring it into say After Effects and insert the pulldown? Would that work for me?
Thanks,
Eli
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