Workflow from FCP to AE back to FCP

[Will Cavanagh]

I’ve run into something somewhat similar with QT before… Sometimes it seems that QT doesn’t get PAR correct, and will display non-square PAR video in square pixels.

In QT Pro, hit Appl+J, and select “Video Track”. Make sure the dimensions are correct and that preserve PAR is checked. This has usually made QT play things correctly for us, but I don’t have any idea why.

Good Luck, hopefully someone will have a better answer.

–Will

[John Corbett]

Thanks very much for the suggestion! I’m going to put that on my list of possible solutions. We’re working on the cheap right now, so I don’t have Quicktime Pro. However, if $30 is all that stands between me and success, I’ll spend the money. I’m curious what other options exist, or if I’m just making some simple error. I’ll be anxious to hear what other community users have to say.

If only my friend had shot her project in standard definition…

[Brendan Coots]

Subcomp the footage into a DVCPRO HD 960×720 1.33 PAR comp. Nest this “footage” composition into a new 1280×720 square pixel composition. Apply any effects, keying etc. to the nested comp (call the comp raw_footage or something). Once you’re done, output from this 1280×720 square pixel comp, and make sure it’s outputting a square pixel file just like the comp settings. In her edit (assuming she’s using FCP) it should properly drop in to the edit without issue even though her other footage is 960×720 with PAR. Do a test to make sure this all works as expected before going into production.

Also, it seems a little odd that you are seeing 720p60 AND 24p in the settings. 720p60 refers to 60i, otherwise known as standard old 29.97. 24p is usually 29.97 with pulldown, but the two are definitely different frame rates. Strange that it is listing two different flavors of frame rate, you may want to do some testing to make sure your AE output plays back properly in her edit given these anomalies.

Brendan Coots
Splitvision Digital
http://www.splitvisiondigital.com

[John Corbett]

Sincerest thanks – I will try this suggestion. As for the discrepancy with the frame rate, the information is from my notebook, and I have a suspicion that the 24p may be something she told me verbally, whereas the rest of the data I copied out of the properties window. That would probably mean it’s actually 60i, right? In the interim, we have introduced a new complication:

The Raylight codec I’m using is the free, watermarked one, so I asked my friend to output again using another codec so I wouldn’t need Raylight. On the Web, the recommended alternatives were Animation or a PNG sequence, so she spat out a QT Animation and I went and picked it up. Now that I’m home, though, it seems that this new sequence has properties that are different from the original footage.

Original w/HD: 960×720, Frame Rate 23.976, PAR 1.333
Animation codec: 1707×720, Frame Rate 29.97, PAR 1.0

Any thoughts on how this happened? Is there any chance I’ll be able to use this? It now produces the OPPOSITE problem in that the footage looks too stretched instead of too squashed! Thanks again for everyone’s help!

EDIT: I opened the properties window in Premiere and the video data block for the QT animation sequqnce lists “frame size” as 1280×720. Not sure if that’s helpful or not. She also sent me a much smaller version compressed with the H.264 compressor, but it’s also stretched.

EDIT 2: Brendan, what codec should I use while rendering your nested composition suggestion? It looks good so far…

[Brendan Coots]

“this new sequence has properties that are different from the original footage.
Original w/HD: 960×720, Frame Rate 23.976, PAR 1.333
Animation codec: 1707×720, Frame Rate 29.97, PAR 1.0 “

The most likely cause is that she output it incorrectly, because 1707 doesn’t map to any logical value, such as an even multiple of the actual frame size. With a PAR of 1.0, it sounds like she’s trying to deliver a square pixel file so that you have less issues but something’s not working quite right.

The best approach for the size issue might be for her to use Compressor to output the file using the animation codec, and in the output dimensions manually set it to 1280×720. This will force Compressor to stretch the image to 1280 when outputting it. You should also return the file to her in Animation codec. This way, you guys are using an uncompressed/lossless round trip. If you used DVCPRO HD for these steps, you’d be double-compressing the footage by the time it makes it back into the edit, then she’d be compressing it a third time upon output. Not good.

As for the frame rate, there is a lot of confusion around HD frame rates since there is a lot of trickery going on behind the scenes. Most 24p is actually 29.97 with pulldown, and while FCP reads this correctly and handles it properly within the edit, outputting the file with the right frame rate can be another story altogether.
When you import footage to AE right-click it and do the Interpret Footage option. AE tends to read the metadata in the file correctly and should tell you what frame rate, size, PAR etc. the file actually is. To further avoid confusion or potential problems you may want to just drag the footage to the Make New Comp icon, which will automatically create a comp with the correct settings so you don’t have to guess. Based on what you’ve said, I would imagine the footage was shot 60i (aka 29.97).

Hope this helps!

Brendan Coots
Splitvision Digital
http://www.splitvisiondigital.com

[Steve Bentley]

We’re doing this exact thing right now.
While it does sound like the export was incorrect at some stage (1707 is the giveaway), as long as the AE file is running at 1.33 PAR the render out of it should be fine. However on re-import back in to FCP, even into the same sequence it came from, the PAR may have been “forgotten” coming out of AE depending on what codec and settings for render you used. If this is the case, simply go into the motion tab for the newly imported clip in FCP and hit the reset (red x) for the distort tab. This will set the PAR back to what it should be so that it looks right in the timeline, and when exported to a final movie. It isn’t technically right but it does undo the damage that occurred coming out of AE.

If instead you are bringing the clip back into a new sequence in FCP and have the new sequence matched to the clips attributes, the image will also be squished – change the PAR in the sequence settings to those of DVCPROHD and then hit the reset on the clips distort tab.

Be careful also of gamma and colour shifts. Depending on codec chosen and whether or not you remain in YUV, or end up in RGB colour space (the animation codec is RGB and it’s what AE works in natively) you can may see a shift. There are ways around this but that’s another forum.

Have you considered exporting out as a pointed movie? Uncheck the “Render as self contained movie” check box in FCP. This way AE will work with the original files and their native colour space and not a re-compressed version. And the initial exported movie from FCP will be microscopic so it saves drive space.