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Why you should use Log and Transfer with Tapeless Media
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[Jeremy Garchow] “At least for p2, the amount of metadata per clip is significant. I’m sure it’s the same for XDCam. It wouldn’t be a simple copy paste, and it goes beyond the reel number. “
You are right. There is a lot of info, including date,camera settings, etc.
rafael -
[Rafael Amador] “You are right. There is a lot of info, including date,camera settings, etc.”
And much much more (at least for P2, can’t imagine it’s too much different for Xdcam MXFs, or at least has similar sensibilities).
It includes data about each clip, so each MXF clip would have to be read and the pertinent data then written to an XML in addition to all the info to tell FCP that it’s a clip to be logged and transferred, then sent back to FCP as an offline clip(s) via XML, then finally log and transferred. P2 Flow can do this, but it’s P2 only. You can transfer clips ‘offline’ for log and transfer, or ‘online’ as MXF with the MXF4mac MXF Import plugin. It’s a pretty involved process and unfortunately it’s not going to be a simple/cheap fix. I am sure Bouke could build something for you if you wanted it, and Andreas Kiel who wrote P2Flow could as well (https://www.spherico.com/filmtools/).
I tend to stay away from L&T these days, only when I have to, but I understand why some would use it.
Jeremy
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The funny thing is that I feel like I’ve found a great reason to use L&T to bring in my XDCAM EX footage – the ability to Batch re-capture – but a lot of people seem to not like L&T.
I’m planning on changing my workflow to ingesting with L&T so I’m wondering what problems or drawbacks you’ve found – specifically with XDCAM EX.
It’s not transcoding the clips so it’s essentially the same file as rewrapping with XDCAM Transfer… so what’s wrong with L&T?
Andrew Wilson
WestView Digital Video & Design
http://www.westviewdigital.com -
[Andrew Wilson] ”
It’s not transcoding the clips so it’s essentially the same file as rewrapping with XDCAM Transfer… so what’s wrong with L&T?”i like it…
i use and teach both Avid and FCP, and when in avid, i really miss L&Tits well organized, supports most tapeless formats (including avchd and even mpeg2 consumer cameras), open to plugins written to it by camera companies, and allows recapturing of sequences, either to save a project, or to reconform it to a higher res.
and its a background process, so you can work while it works
check out the naming preset option… its wonderful.
also, L&T (along some other tools) is written in a different code than the rest of the system – cocoa, which is believed to be the future of FCS, the much expected re-write. so when i use it, its like a sneak peak 🙂 and a reminder, that a better newer version of final cut is on its way
on the bad side
i don’t trust L&T 100%. in a large DSLR project i’m editing (a feature) i’ve noticed very fast, that L&T can arbitrarily decide to take just a part of some clips. it happened more when i used it while editing. and forced me to compare the duration columns after every card transferred.
on large P2 projects it skipped files arbitrarily (although less than with the DSLR)
don’t remember having problems with XDCAM or RED, i still always check after it…
hector
Hector Berrebi
Schibber Group
prePost Consulting -
I edit XDCAM EX .MP4 files natively via the Calibrated plugin so my only real interaction with Log & Transfer would be with R3D or DSLR files. In both cases I use third party tools for the added speed, options and quality for doing the conversions.
Form time to time I do need to use L&T for XDCAM EX files and I have nothing against it in this scenario as it’s only re-wrapping as opposed to transcoding. I don’t like using L&T for transcoding but the ability to batch capture/transfer is a big plus in its favour.
Alex Elkins
Twitter: @postbluetv
http://www.PostBlue.tv
Shot on RED, Post on FCP/Color: Short Capoeira Film -
[Andrew Wilson] “It’s not transcoding the clips so it’s essentially the same file as rewrapping with XDCAM Transfer… so what’s wrong with L&T?”
L&T for XDCAM in FC, is not just similar to XDCAM Transfer: IS THE SAME. L&t is the XDCAM Transfer app triggered from FC.[Andrew Wilson] “It’s not transcoding the clips so it’s essentially the same file as rewrapping with XDCAM Transfer… so what’s wrong with L&T?”
What’s wrong with L&T?
Nothing, if its works for you.
Both systems (L&T and plain Transfer) has pros and cons.
With the Transfer, you base your workflow on individual clips.
With L&T you will be tied to the BPAV structure.
Think that if you have a 1 hour SxS card with only one minute footage useful, you will need to stock 59 minutes of crap just to keep that shot.
Just plan in advance.
rafael -
[Andrew Wilson] “The funny thing is that I feel like I’ve found a great reason to use L&T to bring in my XDCAM EX footage – the ability to Batch re-capture – but a lot of people seem to not like L&T. “
If it’s a great reason for you, go for it! My workflow requirements/habits may differ from yours.
In a nutshell, I find L&T finicky and sometimes unreliable. Just see the types of problems people have with Log and Transfer by searching on this fourm. Sure, some of it is user error, but other times it’s not.
For me, I just don’t see the point of wrapping the already available media to another proprietary format. If FCP could read MXF natively, we would all be using it. You see the issue you are having right now? Just because a workflow was unavailable to you, you are now stuck. Reading the MXFs natively takes any of that out of the equation. I find the media management and tracking is much easier as you are using the native media and not a wrapped copy of it. Sure, there’s a bigger pile of media to go along with it, but so what. Especially if using XDCam which is hyper efficient in terms of file size, this isn’t a big deal.
I can’t speak readily to XDCam as I don’t use it that much. What I do use is the P2 MXF sturcutre and find it very flexible, especially in terms of metadata. I can use P2 Flow to rename clips something meaningful way faster than log and transfer, and I also have the choice of using Log and Transfer is I have to (For clips that need conforming for example). the rest just comes over as MXF files right in to FCP. Everything works very well. Archiving is more efficient and that metadata is not locked in to an FCP project, it travels with the media. This is important for us and out workflow, but maybe not be for others.
Just be sure to test the entire workflow. Log and Transfer, edit, color correct, export, archive then restore an entire project. Make sure it all works.
Basically, I find the opposite experience from what Hector is saying. I don’t miss log and transfer at all.
Jeremy
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[Hector berrebi] “archiving and storing camera file folders for as long as you would with tapes… that’s a problem”
That’s not a problem… Internal BluRay drives are going for about $140 and external drives are running about $180. Disc go for around $6 for 25 gig and $13 for 50 gig. Not bad pricing for archival media.
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Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
https://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com -
[Wayne Carey] “That’s not a problem… Internal BluRay drives are going for about $140 and external drives are running about $180. Disc go for around $6 for 25 gig and $13 for 50 gig. Not bad pricing for archival media.”
i do not trust them…. not after trusting the most expensive DVD’s few years back and realizing it was a mistake,
also… 25 or 50 gig is not enough… not anymore
LTO, with 800 gigs for about 50$ sounds more like it…
i’m actually planning to purchase one soon.
hector
Hector Berrebi
Schibber Group
prePost Consulting -
[Hector berrebi] “i do not trust them…. not after trusting the most expensive DVD’s few years back and realizing it was a mistake, “
How is that? DVDs and BluRays are a permanent form of storage. Better yet, all of your footage is stored by project and saved just like they were going on XDCAM media.
My experience with tape storage has been that it is slow to work with. If you have lots of data on a tape the tape has to search for it before restoring your media. Yes, it does work but tape drives are too expensive for us. And another thing… Tapes DO degrade over time, discs do not.
I have movies that are almost 15 years old on DVD that work flawlessly. Tapes won’t last that long. We used tape storage about 15 years ago when times were really good and money was flowing. We used it religiously up to the point that a tape broke and it cost us a show being aired. That was big lesson learned.
Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. The key is to find the solution that fits your workflow and longevity of storage.
I had a sponsor comeback to us five years after doing a DVD project for them. I backed up their project on hard drives. A hard drive failed… I was lucky enough to have had another copy on DVD without the media and I still had the original miniDV tapes so I could restore the project. The DVD backup saved my butt.
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Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
https://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com
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