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Why is PPro not suited for feature films?
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[Daniel Frome] ” this has been the standard victim card flashed by many people.”
Funny, never considered myself a “victim”. I would tend to consider those in the FCP world the true “victims” after sitting with many, many of them after last year’s SuperMeet, and then watching them abandon FCP for PPro and Avid since that day, much as they felt abandoned themselves.
Which brings up a point – if an editing platform is to be considered for feature film work, wouldn’t it be better to use one that has had a steady rate of improvement and consistently answers it’s user’s concerns, rather than totally pull the rug out from under the pro user base at a critical time? And yes, I certainly realize that Apple is rebuilding FCP, but tell that to the legions of pros who left and are not going back. Apple made it quite clear that it’was changing the FCP market focus from pro to prosumer.
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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions -
I’m consolidating our replies here, forgive me:
[Steve Brame] “To be more accurate, this should read “I just feel more creative when cutting in Avid.”
And I don’t doubt that you do, but don’t speak for others. There are a ton of FCP editors (both former and current) who would disagree.”Well Steve, I am also a FCP editor. I edit on all the major NLEs and since I work TV I usually don’t have control over which software I use. I have to like them all. I’m just an editor, as brand-agnostic as they come. I tend to prefer them all depending on what kind of project I have to do. I don’t believe there is one “best” NLE but I won’t back down from telling you which ones [I think] do specific jobs best, and likewise I don’t feel sympathy for editors who stick to one brand and cry foul when it’s not used universally (I’m not pointing that statement at you, but this is leading into the FCPX paragraph of yours…) Before I get to that, I’ll gladly throw in the obligatory “in my opinion” — which can be applied to this entire posting.
Speaking of sticking to one NLE: I think you’re dead on the money:
[Steve Brame] “if an editing platform is to be considered for feature film work, wouldn’t it be better to use one that has had a steady rate of improvement and consistently answers it’s user’s concerns, rather than totally pull the rug out from under the pro user base at a critical time? And yes, I certainly realize that Apple is rebuilding FCP, but tell that to the legions of pros who left and are not going back.”
But remember, even with all that Apple PR about being used on feature films — they had … what? Maybe 3% of the feature film market? They were much stronger in TV by leaps and bounds. I was among those legions who left, But I might come back one day — although it certainly doesn’t look like I’ll need to practice my trackless editing skills for many years to come. Silly Apple. By that time I’ll have my assistants editing off their ipad while they balk at me for ‘still having to press buttons.’ As for feature film work: that world is still dominated by the offline/online edit — which Avid is best at, followed by a distant 2nd with FCP7, and Premiere somewhere lagging behind Edius. In my opinion, of course.
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[Steve Brame] “So with MC it’s a couple of keypresses, then a click, then a mouse-click, then a bunch of keypresses instead of PPro where you press one key then drag the edit point. Sounds MUCH easier – and SMART! :>)
Suffice to say that it’s all a matter of personal preference, and simply a preference over trimming styles isn’t a solid reason for an editing platform to not be considered able to handle a feature film.”
You know, you hear what you want to hear. Have you heard that expression? I made it very clear in my post how to trim in Avid but all you got from that was:
“So with MC it’s a couple of keypresses, then a click, then a mouse-click, then a bunch of keypresses”
Really? If you would read my post again, you would actually see that I sad that if you want to use your mouse to trim, it’s acutally easier in Avid than in Premiere, if you ask me.
Try to be open and not compare everything to your Premiere. Some thing are done with fewer clicks in Premiere, and some aren’t. It’s about workflow, and I don’t say Premiere is not as good as Avid, I’m saying the trimming is better.
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First off, I do know of at least one feature film that was shown in theatres that was edited with Premiere Pro- It’s called Dust to Glory. It’s a documentary by Dana Brown about the Baja 1000 race.
As for why it’s not being used for more visible stuff, I think the fact that there’s a thread THIS LONG on the Cow’s Premiere Pro forum about what it is that’s keeping PPro from being used to edit feature films is proof that the day is getting closer.
After all, before CS5 and the FCPX debacle, all of the serious pro editors who are able to give good explanations for that question wouldn’t have even seen this thread- they’d all be in the FCP forum…
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“THAT’S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine… But after this windmill it’s the future or bust.” -
“If you would read my post again”
Hey, I’ll do better than that, I’ll quote it!Here we go…
“I just go near where the cut is with my marker”
At least one keypress or mouse-click.“press the “U” button to go into trim mode.”
A second keypress.“click on the source monitor, or if you want to trim the clip on the right of the marker you just press the composer (right monitor).”
At least one mouse-click per direction you wish to trim.“Then you kan either trim with your keys or use j-k-l tro trim in real time.”
The remaining “bunch of key presses”.In other words, as I said…
“a couple of keypresses, then a click, then a mouse-click, then a bunch of keypresses”.Or perhaps my math is wrong. Even so, my count would have to be REALLY off to beat “one keypress and drag”. Still, this is has really gotten silly, and off point, and I apologize for allowing it to. Avid most definitely has the creds for film editing, and I’ll not question it, but it certainly did NOT achieve this lofty position because of it’s ‘ease’ in trimming procedure. I just thought it a bit humorous that it was the only specific offered, and I ran with it. Again…sorry.
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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions -
[Steve Brame] “Which brings up a point – if an editing platform is to be considered for feature film work, wouldn’t it be better to use one that has had a steady rate of improvement and consistently answers it’s user’s concerns, rather than totally pull the rug out from under the pro user base at a critical time?”
Bear in mind that the whole FCPX fiasco went down less than a year ago. And Premiere hadn’t really been branded as “the one that answers its user’s concerns” in a big way before then. Not a whole lot of time to turn an industry around.
Even though it’s in its death throes, FCP7 is still viable, so I don’t think there was a dire need for every FCP editor to make a switch overnight, be it to Premiere, Media Composer, or FCPX. Quite a few FCP users were even still happily on version 6 at the time of FCPX’s release.
I think it’s going to take a big name player (I’m sure more than a handful of indies have already done it) cutting a feature on Premiere to prove it can be done before the software really gets taken seriously. Fincher’s boys cut his last two or three features on FCP, and seem to be big fans of conforming in After Effects. It will be interesting to see what they do in the wake of FCP Legacy. I’d be willing to bet a rep from Adobe is being real friendly to those guys.
It’s also going to take Adobe seriously stepping up their game (yet again) in CS6. As stated before in this thread, there are still many small nagging problems that I think will continue to turn a lot of pro users off until they are addressed.
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[Benjamin Lundin] “Try to be open and not compare everything to your Premiere.”
Years editing on Premiere – 5
Years editing on MC – 6It’s not ‘my Premiere’. It’s what I prefer currently, although I’m exploring others as we speak. I simply choose to correct misconceptions as they are offered. The claim was made that in Premiere you cannot trim in the timeline. I merely pointed out that you can. Then it was morphed into a competition between which platform is easier to trim in, totally ignoring the fact that I had simply and effectively corrected a misconception. Claims were made that MC is easier. Having edited with Avid for many years I felt that this was a misconception, however, having not used the newer version with ‘Smart Tools’, I asked if the procedure had changed. Given the procedure, and applying simple math, I easily demonstrated that Avid at least took more steps that “my Premiere” to perform a simple trim. It should stand at that, but probably wont. If the Avid trim method pleases you, then by all means stick with it. But please don’t confuse your enjoyment with ease of use, unless in the context of – it’s what you are used to, so of course it’s more comfortable for you, and therefore ‘easier’ for you.
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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions -
[Daniel Frome] ” I don’t believe there is one “best” NLE”
There certainly is! It’s the one that you like the best! I edited with Avid. It was ‘the best’. Then when Adobe developed the CS line of software, I gave it a try at both NAB and the suite at B&H. I liked it better, so for me it became ‘the best’. See how magnanimous I can be? In the interim I also have edited with FCP(several versions) both at NAB and B&H, and I’d always said that if Apple would port a version of FCP to Windows, I’d switch. But alas, I don’t do Macs so FCP wasn’t a viable option for me. However, I did notice, as many MANY post-FCPX converts to PPro are discovering, there isn’t a whole lot of difference between the two, certainly not enough to support the hypnotic reaction that we saw for years. At SuperMeet last year, I could have sworn that I heard the hypnotist snap his fingers, and multitudes awakened from their trance.
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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions -
[Mike Molenda] “I think it’s going to take a big name player (I’m sure more than a handful of indies have already done it) cutting a feature on Premiere to prove it can be done before the software really gets taken seriously.”
Such as during the move from film to digital, or linear to non-linear, or 8-track to cassettes.
OK, the last one was just for fun – sort of…
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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions -
This is getting really silly man. Years of editing in MC 6? Check the release date and you will be surprised how fast the time is passing by, I mean when “years” actually means 4 months..
And with all that correcting of your mouse clicks and all that. You still don’t listen to me? Smart tools makes it easier than Premiere. In premiere, if you want to a rolling edit, you have to move your mouse –> press N –> go to your clip and change it, and then press V to go back to normal tool. In Avid you just go to the clips and drag directly. In Premiere you have to hold Ctrl to do a ripple edit, in Avid you don’t have to.
It’s not the matter of “how many clicks” it takes. It’s a matter of the time is takes, and what resaults it gives to you.
Trimming without smart tools in MC is not faster than in Premiere, but it’s not slower either. But it gives me the ability to do exact edits. If I want to I can go frame by fram. In Premiere, you have to zoom in to the timeline to actually be able to trim frame by fram.
I will end this discussion now. I’m not mad at you and I hope you’re not mad at me. I’m not against Premiere, in fact I’ve used it much more than Avid. All I’m saying is that I think that the Avid trim tools are better than what they are in Premiere. I could say that it’s a fact, but that would just raise the hate against me, so I won’t.
It all comes down to what you’re comfortable with using. If you think Premiere it most fitted for you, you should without any doubt go with Premiere. In the end, It’s just what’s on the screen that matters 🙂
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