Why is PPro not suited for feature films?

[Richard Cardonna]

Premiere specialy in projects done with the red codec is being used to conform movies like social network and the girl with tattos, these where offlined in fcp7 and conformed in CS5.5

I am sure that when adobe keeps adding features and workflow it will be used more and more.

rc

[Steve Brame]

I’ll be the first to bring up the 500 pound gorilla in the room. One of the reasons is misinformation. For years we PPro users have had to endure claim after claim from the ‘other side’ that unless you were editing in FCP, you weren’t a professional. And that isn’t hyperbole. We have actually had proposals declined specifically because we were told that by the potential client – because they had been told that, ostensibly by a FCP user.

Since last year’s SuperMeet we have watched the mass exodus from FCP to PPro(yes, Avid too, but this is a Premiere forum), continually hearing statements such as “I had no idea that PPro was that similar to Final Cut”.

The list of films edited with FCP that is found quite easily on the web has been shown to be, at least, a bit misleading. Some of the films listed were not fully edited with FCP, but FCP merely was used in some phase of the edit, and many times it was just as a mobile on-site platform to view scenes and roughs during a shoot. Strangely enough, you mention ‘The Social Network’ as one of those, while it is also claimed that it was edited with PPro.

Again…misinformation.

I do not work on feature films, but I do at times edit long format programs, and no one that I know of edits a 90+ minute timeline. It’s dangerous, and there is absolutely no need to do it, so the ability for editing software to work more easily on a long timeline shouldn’t be a factor in it’s consideration for use in a film.

Sorry for the rant, but I’ve been saving up for a few years…

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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions

[Daniel Frome]

[Steve Brame] “I’ll be the first to bring up the 500 pound gorilla in the room. “

No, this has been the standard victim card flashed by many people. Not only premiere, but just about every other NLE that doesn’t get the prestige of being used by top-end industry.

I’m not the confrontational type, so please understand that I’m not combating you for the sake of petty forum bashing. I want guys like Benjamin (the original poster of this thread) to know that we’ve tried to implement Premiere Pro into our television pipeline multiple times. While it’s great at some things, it just never makes the cut (no pun intended).

It’s a shame that some FCP editors said bad things about Premiere — because Ppro is obviously a more advanced NLE now. But in order to win over an industry or even just a few studios at time you can’t just be a little bit better: you’ve got to be whopping hand over fist better. Right now Adobe is focussed on making Premiere “more rounded” with better color correction tools, audio tools, etc, but that’s exactly why top-industry doesn’t care: they’ve got tools for that already. If Adobe wants to take over Avid’s space (if they even do, it’s not like it would honestly make them that much more money) then they’ve got to get their editing tools in shape — at least get their ripple tools up to par with FCP7.

What DOES Ppro do well? Anything regarding import and export. They are masters of real-time everything and blazing fast output to any format. Ppro doesn’t a balk at file formats, resolutions, alpha channels, color spaces, it’s a practically perfect in that realm. That’s why it’s used by agencies and corporate projects — where the client is constantly making note after note, export after export — fast in/out pipelines. The middle stage (the ‘editing’ cough cough) is where it’s lacking. And how is it lacking? 1) it doesn’t share projects with multiple computers and deliver collaborative workflow. 2) it doesn’t have enough redundancy in its import/ingest functionality to allow thousands of hours to be ingested by multiple people and not have linking mishaps. 3) it isn’t keyboard friendly enough for actual editing, especially trim, 4) it doesn’t elegantly handle 23.98NDF to 59.94DF delivery pipelines — which is standard for any TV show that shoots 23.98.

[Benjamin Lundin]

CLIFF: That sounds great! That’s a lot of footage!

STEVE: Since Media Composer 5 you can trim right on the timeline. And by the way, going in to trim mode is one of the fastest things to do. If you know the keyboard commands you can trim very fast in Avid.

DANIEL: I couldn’t agree more! Iv’e edited on Avid for some time, and the trimming is amazing. I just can’t lie about that. It’s so easy to to exact edits with your keyboard. I also find the Avid timeline to be more solid. It’s so easy to get a prespective of how everythiing is.

But again, Premiere has it’s good sides. To work nativly works way better in Premiere than in Avid (AMA). It also feels like Premiere is easier to experiment with than Avid. It’s also easier to do cool looking texts and effects.

But like you sad, as an editor, if I know that I’m only gonna get everything on the timeline and trim a lot and not deal with so many effects, Avid is the way to go!

[Benjamin Lundin]

Thanks for the help Daniel. You provide some good info to this thread.

Apparently, my reply I did just a minute ago came higher up in the thread, just because I replied to someone up there. But I replied to you too so you can check that out. You could say the CC Forums reply system is as good as Premieres trimmming. It works, but not 100%.

Yes, I like a lot in Premiere, but as you say, when it comes to the basics of editing it’s not working 100% well. Trimming is maybe the most important thing for professional editors that are editing footage all day long, and for that reason Avid wins. But once again, I’m not doing any kind of “vs” thread here, I just want to know what you think about PPro and what could be better.

If I could create a mix between PPro and Avid it would probably be the best editing software today. True story :).

[Steve Brame]

I guess I’m too thick to understand. Having used Media Composer for years, albeit the versions prior to Avid’s attempt to compete with FCP, I always found trimming there to be a bit ‘clunky’ feeling, having to go through extra steps in order to simply ripple, whereas with PPRo I can simply hit ‘B’ and ripple away. Same with rolling edits. How is MC able to do this with less steps these days?

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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions

[Benjamin Lundin]

It depens if you’re using the smart tools or not.

If you have your smart tools on, it is in fact EASIER than in premiere. You just go to your clip, make sure the tool turn yellow at the cut, and then just drag it however you want. I don’t go into details here, but google it and you will find that it is very easy.

I prefer to do it with my keyboard. I just go near where the cut is with my marker, press the “U” button to go into trim mode. If I want to trim the clip to the left I click on the source monitor, or if you want to trim the clip on the right of the marker you just press the composer (right monitor). Then you kan either trim with your keys or use j-k-l tro trim in real time. Trimming in real time is an amazing feature to, that only exists on avid. It does exist on fcpx, but not in the same good way.

[Steve Brame]

So with MC it’s a couple of keypresses, then a click, then a mouse-click, then a bunch of keypresses instead of PPro where you press one key then drag the edit point. Sounds MUCH easier – and SMART! :>)

Suffice to say that it’s all a matter of personal preference, and simply a preference over trimming styles isn’t a solid reason for an editing platform to not be considered able to handle a feature film.

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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions

[Steve Brame]

[Benjamin Lundin] “Since Media Composer 5 you can trim right on the timeline. And by the way, going in to trim mode is one of the fastest things to do. If you know the keyboard commands you can trim very fast in Avid. “

Nice, but since Premiere has almost always allowed trimming on the timeline (at least since the CS series started), it’s hardly a comparison. And with PPro, you don’t even have to “go into trim mode”, you’re already there! Just trim! Also, you can quite easily set PPro’s keyboard shortcuts to mimic MC, it’s included for free. Not sure how they handle trimming with these shortcuts, since again with PPro you never have to enter into ‘Trim Mode’, but if you are so inclined, I’m sure there is a comparable keyboard shortcut to open the Trim Window.

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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions

[Steve Brame]

[Daniel Frome] “You just feel more creative when cutting in Avid”

To be more accurate, this should read “I just feel more creative when cutting in Avid.”

And I don’t doubt that you do, but don’t speak for others. There are a ton of FCP editors (both former and current) who would disagree.

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“98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing ‘F1’.”
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions