Why doesn’t SV 11 offer rendering using h264 codec as MOV?

[John Bean]

You said you were rendering out as Quictime MOV from Vegas. Is this correct?

So what video codec are you using?

If you are using UNCOMPRESSED or a Lossless codec and then letting MPEG Stream Clip render it out as a H.264 MOV file, there shouldn’t be any problems with *QUALITY*.

If you using some other lossy codec or visually lossless codec, there will be quality lost depending on your compression settings.

If you really want a MOV file, let me suggest a simple workflow for you.

1. RENDER-AS a .MP4 using either Sony AVC or MainConcept AVC/MP4.

2. Use FFMPEG to create the .MOV file using: “-vcodec copy”

ex. ffmpeg -i test.mp4 -vcodec copy -acodec copy test.mov

This command basically tells ffmpeg to re-wrap your test.mp4 in a MOV container.

Good luck!

[Ron Whitaker]

When I render in Vegas as Quicktime–and normally I wouldn’t, but for my class I have to–I select the Motion JPEG A codec as Video Format. (The options under Video Format are codecs, aren’t they?)

H264 isn’t an option in Vegas, hence my original question as to why.

How do I know if a codec is lossy/lossless/uncompressed?

For my situation, would a better workflow be:

1) Selecting something like the HD 1080p (from MainConcept AVC/AAC) or Blu-Ray 1920×1080-24p, 16Mpbs video stream (selected from Sony AVC/MVC),

2) Then opening the file in MPEG Stream Clip and exporting to Quicktime using the h264 codec.

Would that be a better workflow?

[John Bean]

MOTION JPEG is a LOSSY video codec. Essentially your video frames are being compressed as JPEG. Then MPEG Stream Clip has to uncompressed this before it re-compresses it as H.264.

So yeah, there is quality loss here. Is it a big deal? If it is just for class, maybe not.

So your OLD work-flow was not optimal.

In regards to your suggested new work-flow:

I’m not sure how MPEG Stream Clip works.

Is there is an option in MPEG Stream Clip that allows you to re-wrap the .MP4 file as .MOV without *re-encoding*? ie. copy video and audio streams without re-encoding?

If so, then there will be no quality lost for your .MP4 to .MOV conversion because its just re-wrapping.

But if MPEG Stream Clip has to re-encode your .MP4, then you are losing quality again like your last work-flow. In fact, you are losing more quality!

But again, it it is just for class and quality is not a big issue, then doing what you are doing now is fine.

[Ron Whitaker]

“Is there is an option in MPEG Stream Clip that allows you to re-wrap the .MP4 file as .MOV without *re-encoding*? ie. copy video and audio streams without re-encoding?”

I have no idea. How can I tell if the program is re-encoding or not? I take it it is better to NOT re-encode?

All I do is go into MPEG Stream Clip, open the .mp4 file, then select File > Export to Quicktime.

Would it be better to use something like Handbrake?

Here’s a screenshot of the Export to Quicktime dialog box with settings:

[Dave Haynie]

[Ron Whitaker] “I’m rendering projects to .mov for a class and was wondering why Vegas doesn’t have the h264 codec when rendering to Quicktime .mov?”

It’s an Apple thing… I don’t understand.

Well, actually, I do. Quicktime is a media framework, much like Video for Windows or DirectShow. Vegas doesn’t have any pre-defined knowledge of the Quicktime CODECs, it simply calls up the Quicktime subsystem that you’ve installed on your PC. Apple, of course, created this, and they’re the guys responsible for the basic set of CODECs that ship in the free Quicktime install. Which doesn’t include H.264/AVC/MPEG-4 Part 10… whatever you want to call it.

It’s quite possible to install new CODECs under the Quicktime system on your PC, and these do become available to Vegas. I have both Avid’s DNxHD (SMPTE VC-3 compliant) and Cineform installed under Quicktime… Cineform also runs under VfW. But Apple doesn’t include H.264, ProRes, and perhaps other CODECs in the PC distribution of Quicktime. Even Quicktime Pro doesn’t support H.264 as a general output format; the dedicated Quicktime player will produce Apple-specific low resolution/bitrate H.264 conversions.

-Dave

[John Bean]

It doesn’t look like MPEG Stream Clip can re-wrap .MP4s to .MOVs without re-encoding.

You edit your clips in Vegas. Then you rendered it out to lossy codec. Lossy means you lose you information, and hence quality. Then when you use MPEG Stream Clip, the app uncompresses your video and then it recompresses it to a H264 video inside a MOV file container.

[source video]->VEGAS->{lossy compression}->[MP4 video]->MPEG-STREAM-CLIP->{uncompresses}->{lossy compression}->[H264 MOV video]

So along this chain, video data is being lost every time you compress and uncompress to and from a lossy codec. Hence you lose quality.

I don’t use Handbrake either, but I think its very similar to MPEG Stream Clip.

Google: ffmpeg

Download and install it. It’s free.

Then open up a command line terminal and type: ffmpeg -i test.mp4 -vcodec copy -acodec copy test.mov

where “test.mp4” is the MP4 you rendered out from Vegas, and “test.mov” is the new MOV file you want to create.

That’s it!

If you’ve never used a command line terminal before, now is a good time to learn!

[Steve Rhoden]

Listen Ron…Vegas just never has had that option of
encoding to h264 (but im not gonna get in all that technical stuff)
Dave kinda explained a bit.

The h264 format isnt a holy grail, Use your Sony AVC(mp4)
or the Mainconcept AVC(mp4) Formats.

Steve Rhoden
(Cow Leader)
Film Editor & Compositor.
Filmex Creative Media.
1-876-832-4956

[John Rofrano]

[Dave Haynie] “Even Quicktime Pro doesn’t support H.264 as a general output format; the dedicated Quicktime player will produce Apple-specific low resolution/bitrate H.264 conversions.”

Actually, QuickTime Pro does support H.264. This was the whole reason I purchased QuickTime Pro. Every application that I have which uses QuickTime Pro now has H.264 support EXCEPT Vegas!!! So Sony has done something in their implementation that cripples H.264 support in QuickTime event if you purchase QuickTime Pro from Apple. I have no idea why they would do this (but it doesn’t work).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Dave Haynie]

Really… I did not know that. Of course, that might have something to do with pretty much only using Vegas to create AVC video. But yeah, they clear seem to be blocking that option.

Oh… there it is. Never been a big deal, but I had not found this in the Quicktime Pro “Export” UI, either. But there it is: if I select either “Quicktime Video” or “MPEG-4”, and in the latter case select “Movie to Quicktime Movie”, the H.264 option is there.

So that’s probably the path of least resistance if you really need an AVC MOV (M-O-U-S-E). Render out to uncompressed or DNxHD (download from Avid’s web site) in Quicktime, feed this to Quicktime Pro (cheap), and Export from the Quicktime player to H.264.

-Dave

[Ron Whitaker]

Okay, all these great responses have raised more questions in my mind.

1) First question: if I render out to MainConcept AVC/AAC (.mp4) or Sony AVC/MVC, those are containers, right? And I think/hope that the video codec each of those use is h264. Is my thinking correct?

2) Now, besides ffmpeg, is there a way to take my MainConcept or Sony rendered file and re-wrap/re-encode it to another container–like Quicktime–without further compressing and therefore losing more quality?

The only reason why I’d like to find something other than ffmpeg is that ffmpeg looks like you basically enter commands like on an old DOS prompt. (I left the old DOS prompt behind 20+ years ago and would rather not go back to that! But if that’s all there is out there, then I guess that’s what I’ll have to use.)

And right now, the ONLY reason why I’m having to end up in Quicktime is for my class. After the class is over, I’ll NEVER go to Quicktime again.

3) OK, one last question: my footage that comes from my camera (Panasonic GH2) is in AVCHD format. Is AVCHD compressed, or an uncompressed format? So, when I open my AVCHD clips in SV, do my editing, then render it out, it’s getting compressed again, no matter WHAT format I render to?

So, now I just need to find a way to take my SV rendered file and simply re-encode it to another container without further compression. I guess I’ll have to look more at ffmpeg. (But is there anything else?)