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Why do users say FCP X is fast? Some new numbers.
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[Michael Gissing] “Perfect for all? Of course not. No software or payment model is. “
What is “imperfect” about e.g. Apple’s payment/licensing model for you? As in: pay once. Period. Install on any and all machines that you own. No phoning home needed to keep it alive. What’s missing?
[Michael Gissing] “Adobe software has been historically hugely cracked and pirated and without control of OS and online stores they really did have to look at a different model.”
I hope you’re not seriously suggesting that as of the CC model, that Adobe software suddenly became magically immune to being hacked and only people paying for it are actually using it. Because I don’t see what has actually changed as far as that’s concerned. Aside from maybe the methods.
– RK
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[Robin S. Kurtz] “What is “imperfect” about e.g. Apple’s payment/licensing model for you?”
Firstly my statement was that “no software or payment model is”. So the answer for me is that not everyone wants to use FCPX, or Pr, or Resolve or AVID etc. On the matter of payment some like free (Resolve) while some like buy once and some like subscription. I think the Apple pay model is very good but I preferred Resolve being free when I started using it and then virtually given away when I bought their 4K camera. Subscription is not my preferred method but some like it. I prefer Pr to edit but I do little editing and mostly grade online finishing and Resolve 12 will most likely be what I use for editing from now on. Right tools and right payment method for me seems to be Resolve. So my statement holds true in spite of your inference.
Of course subscription doesn’t prevent cracking and piracy and I never said it had. But I would be surprised if Adobe doesn’t think it has reduced what was a revenue deluge. After all it is unpopular and must therefore be better for Adobe or why would they risk such ire. Perhaps Dennis R has some insight into whether it has helped in that area.
But Robin, what made you think I was even suggesting hacking has stopped? Gee I even know people with hacked FCPX. If you wish to engage in intelligent discussion I would prefer you stop the assumption that I speak in absolutes. Only a fool would do so.
[Scott Whitthaus]”When do you think the first price increases will be, if that has not happened already?”
Sorry for not adding that I have no association with any of the NLE developers so on matters of pricing I suggest you contact them. I can tell you that being in Australia we are charged more than any other country and with the recent reduction in the $Au to the $US the price has effectively gone up 25% but only if you are paying by the month not a previously paid yearly subscription.
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[Tony West] “If you are talking about when I’m in the work place, it really depends on the situation and what’s being said. In general, I tend not to let misinformation or a flat out lie, sit out there unchallenged.
If it does, it stands the chance of becoming real to people even if it has no bases in fact.”
If someone is factually wrong about something I’m likely to correct them as well, but if I’m at a mixer (or on the Internet) and I hear someone say they think such and such sucks it’s most likely a rabbit hole I don’t care enough to go down anymore. If I’m discussing workflow for a project I’m on (or consulting on) I’ll speak up about everything if I think someone is mistaken because I want us to end up with the best workflow possible. Generally speaking though someone’s NLE preference, unlike politics, is pretty inconsequential.
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[Bill Davis] “People work VERY hard to prove that the solution I’ve discovered that works for me – and makes me a much happier editor – is really no solution at all -“
I can only speak about interactions I remember here at the COW (I certainly don’t have every post committed to memory) and while there as been scoffing and dismissive remarks I’m having trouble recalling someone saying something to the effect of, “No, Bill Davis, X is not the best solution for your specific needs.” On a related note, some would say that at times you work very hard to prove that the solutions others have discovered, which work for them and make them happier editors, are really not solutions at all. On multiple occasions you’ve basically told people that they should worry about becoming unemployed if they don’t learn X and that you worry about the future of post production in America because you don’t think the industry is adopting X fast enough.
Your unbridled enthusiasm for X is not always a benefit when it comes to discussing the merits of X.
[Bill Davis] ” And to tell me why it would NEVER work for them – even tho they don’t really understand it and have never really tried it in depth. It’s almost pathological. And I believe it deserves to be confronted.”
I think this why I’m horrible at sales (and never got into product evangelism). If someone that knows a whole heck of a lot more about their needs/wants/desires than I do tells me that Solution ABC wouldn’t be as effective as Solution XYZ I’d be like “okay.” I’d feel very presumptuous to start telling someone else their business w/o taking adequate time to try and thoroughly understand it myself.
[Bill Davis] “. But you’ve got to admit that there are few here (not nobody, but few) who have taken as much personal crap as I have for expressing those evil “Pro-FCPX” opinions here. And I do get tired of it sometimes. “
Specifically for X on the COW I would probably agree but to be fair the wounds are primarily self-inflicted. Also, it’s only been around 4yrs so you might have to start pacing yourself if you still want to put up a fight 10, 15 or even 20yrs down the road. 😉 If it makes you feel any better there are a bunch of Avid Editors on Facebook currently blowing off steam because they are tired of being told that if they don’t learn yet another NLE soon they’ll be out of a job.
I feel your pain which is why I try to be much more selective about who I engage with.
As a Mac and PC user that works on unscripted TV shows/docs in Los Angeles (as well as web videos), and uses a variety of NLEs there is very little mud slinging that won’t potentially fly my direction. To haters outside of Hollywood I’m an out of touch, elitist in an ivory tower. To haters inside Hollywood, I’m 2nd rate because I don’t do scripted movies or TV shows (and 3rd rate if I’m doing a web series). I’ve defended PCs to Mac guys, Macs to PC guys and been in countless discussions about the virtues of Avid/Premiere/FCP (both) as well as countless discussions about the shortcomings of Avid/Premiere/FCP (both).
If I picked just one camp to advocate for I’d probably have an easier time of things but that just doesn’t seem to be in me.
-Andrew
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[Andrew Kimery] “Your unbridled enthusiasm for X is not always a benefit when it comes to discussing the merits of X. “
So through the text equivalent of the transitive property of equality that sentence can also be…
“Someone’s unbridled dismissiveness of X is not always a benefit when it comes to discussing it’s merits?”
Want to compare the number of people who did that during X years 1-3 compared to us fans?
Or are you suggesting that there isn’t STILL a massive lingering number of working editors who see X in exactly the same way they used to?
Exhibit one right here on the cow, where Herb said TODAY (partially joking) something that reinforced the silly meme that “nobody” at his level – in his area- uses X. In reply Charlie points out the Variety story yesterday where Lifetime/TLC just cut one of the major OJ Simpson documentaries about to hit the airwaves on it. Something those of us on the X centric boards have been discussing (not the project details since that was under wraps) for more than two years now.
You see what you look at.
If you put your money on Premiere three years ago, what’s the point of looking for X success stories? You picked your horse.
Others with different interests seek out and see different things.
Now the the wraps are off, maybe Christy,Patrick and some of the other folks on the OJ edit team will say something. Or not.
But Herb is experiencing editing “inside” his choice. As are the rest of us. That simply does NOT make him qualified to describe how X is doing except from his perspective inside his choice. That’s fine, but he elected NOT to explore X and further. Christy and Patrick did – and have completed the big job due to that. Simple as that.
[Andrew Kimery] “If someone that knows a whole heck of a lot more about their needs/wants/desires than I do tells me that Solution ABC wouldn’t be as effective as Solution XYZ I’d be like “okay.” I’d feel very presumptuous to start telling someone else their business w/o taking adequate time to try and thoroughly understand it myself.”
So if they’re plowing with horses – and you’re a tractor salesman – you’re happy to keep your mouth shut and let them keep plowing? I’m not.
THE POINT HERE IS NOT THAT X IS A TRACTOR AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A HORSE! – so calm down folks. It just points out that the way I think. If I find a tool that makes my life and job easier for ME – I like to tell others about it. I think that’s the decent thing to do. And I expect them to take that info and do their own investigation. But no, I don’t keep quiet and let them continue without knowledge of what might be a more efficient tool. It’s not how I’m wired. So sue me.[Andrew Kimery] “I feel your pain which is why I try to be much more selective about who I engage with.
“Pain is a necessary warning system. You can’t escape it. What helps a lot in my experience is engaging with lots of different folks who have done different things – and learning from different perspectives.
For me, that means MORE engagement and debate. Not less. But that’s just me. YMMV.Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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[Bill Davis] “”Someone’s unbridled dismissiveness of X is not always a benefit when it comes to discussing it’s merits?”
Agreed, and neither extreme is helpful, IMO (they are like outliers in statics that are dismissed so they don’t skew the average).
Want to compare the number of people who did that during X years 1-3 compared to us fans?
I never cared enough to keep count, but if you have a comprehensive spreadsheet keeping score I’m curious to see it.
Or are you suggesting that there isn’t STILL a massive lingering number of working editors who see X in exactly the same way they used to? “
Why would I suggest that when I’ve always agreed with you that there are people that have an illogical dislike of X?
Of course I’ve always added that there will always be people that have an illogical dislike of X. Just like there will always be people that have an illogical dislike of Avid, FCP Legend, PPro, etc.,. I was only half kidding when I said that you better pace yourself if you are going to keep fighting this fight for the next 15 or 20 years. Hell, I still run into people that are legitimately bitter that Microsoft ‘stole’ Apple’s GUI back in the 80’s. No helping those types of folks.
[Bill Davis] “So if they’re plowing with horses – and you’re a tractor salesman – you’re happy to keep your mouth shut and let them keep plowing? I’m not. “
If I was a tractor salesmen I’d take in a bit of what’s around me before I walked up to a stranger and started talking about how awesome tractors are. Are they Amish? Are they in an underdeveloped area where fuel is prohibitively expensive? Are they selective cutting trees (going into the woods and felling only specific trees)? Is the terrain such that using a tractor wouldn’t be practical?
If I was a tractor salesman (let’s say for John Deere) I’d like to think I’d be the type of tractor salesman that would be knowledgable about various tractors and various aspects of plowing so I could recommend the best solution for the person I’m talking with (maybe it is a horse, maybe it’s a Kubota, maybe it’s a John Deere) even if it isn’t the best solution for my pocket book. Those are the salesmen I respect, and those are the ones I’ll call if I my needs change and/or refer to a friend.
Of course I already stated I’d probably be a crappy salesman which is why I’m not a salesman. I’m an editor. I’m not looking to pimp a product, I’m looking to find the best solutions for a given situation. Maybe it’s X, maybe it’s Avid, maybe it’s Resolve, maybe it’s Red Giant, maybe it’s a Mac, maybe it’s a PC. I’ve got a few different types of footwear in the closet and while my favorite is a pair of black boots I wouldn’t wear them for a hike in the mountains or a leisurely stroll on the beach. There’s nothing wrong with them, they just aren’t the optimal choice for those situations.
[Bill Davis] “For me, that means MORE engagement and debate. Not less. But that’s just me. YMMV.”
Quality over quantity, IMO.
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[Andrew Kimery] “Maybe it’s X, maybe it’s Avid, maybe it’s Resolve, maybe it’s Red Giant, maybe it’s a Mac, maybe it’s a PC. I’ve got a few different types of footwear in the closet and while my favorite is a pair of black boots I wouldn’t wear them for a hike in the mountains or a leisurely stroll on the beach. There’s nothing wrong with them, they just aren’t the optimal choice for those situations.
“But how can you even assess that if you have little to no experience with ALL of them?
What we see here mostly is software A editors questioning software B. B guys questioning A. And C questioning everyone.
But the thing is nobody is willing to believe anyone else.
And besides, you bing up “the optimum choice” I think too many editors chase that myth. The popular programs all work just fine. But they all come with a focus. A view, if you will, of what editing is now – and needs to be for the future.
Seems to me AVID is still (and will likely always be) focused on “industrial shop” editing.
Premiere Pro is trying partly to go there – and also be the traditionalist choice for individual editors. Change, but not TOO MUCH change. Keep faith with the traditional timeline cuz it’s just too hard to give it up – and heck, it does everything any editor should ever need, after all. Commit your $600 a year and never look back.
X requires significant editor change. You have to be willing to start over and re-think your editing workflow. In exchange for that, you’re given a range of efficient new tools that may make your editing more fluid and easier. That’s MY experience. I understand it’s totally debatable (witness this forum) but a bit hard to debate with people who don’t actually use the software.
Resolve is a wildcard. A fabulous node-based color corrector upon which BlackMagic is rapidly grafting an editorial engine with some X capabilities and a non-scary timeline-based workflow. And its FREE-ish!!! Strong mojo for those fearless enough to bet that the EDITORIAL part of this great Color Correction Software will continue to grow and eventually take over and meet BOTH needs.
One Ring to rule them all. (well, if they eventually get the asset management and audio and titling and distribution stuff up to current standards as well.)So how does the individual editor choose?
Nobody can tell you that.
But I think it’s valuable hearing from those who use EACH.
Don’t you?
; )
Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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First off, after my last post I was worried I’d pushed us in the direction of talking in circles so thank you for helping to keep this conversation moving forward.
My optimum choice comment wasn’t meant to be a one ring to rule them all comment but a pick the best horse for the course comment. Sometimes the differences between the NLEs won’t make a difference and sometimes they will. Not to state the obvious, but if the differences don’t matter for a given situation then one should feel free to pick at will. If the differences do matter though then a more deliberate choice makes sense.
[Bill Davis] “But I think it’s valuable hearing from those who use EACH.
Don’t you?
; )”
Of course, but as you may have guessed by now I prefer more tempered voices. 😉
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[Bill Davis] “But how can you even assess that if you have little to no experience with ALL of them?”
thats a good question Bill, and one you should ask yourself.
You constantly slag on Avid – when was the last time you actually used it? Have you booted it up since version 4,or 5,6,7,8?
Kind of like the difference between X 10.0.1 and 10.2.1 and how people are forming an opinion based of 10.0.1
How do you know the advancements made in the last 6 years havent morphed into something that would tremendously help your workflow and business? I get that you write off Adobe for being subscription based but Avid has perpetual license options and really good, economical upgrade plan.
Just saying cause you always say people chime in w/o actually have really learnt the software. Cant the same be said for you?
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