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Where is editing going
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[Tim Wilson] “I know you’re not saying that the “Adobe rental” has been around for six years…but at the current rate:
$49 x 72 months = $3240
That’s assuming you didn’t just go for Photoshop ($9.99) and After Effects ($19.99 — what? The price is DOWN from its former $29/mo. The price is going DOWN, just like every other software, everywhere, from every vendor, all the time) for $28.88 x 72 months = $2079.36
vs
Master Collection CS 5 (2010, but close enough) $2599 + 1 upgrade (CS6 upgrade) @$699 = $3298
Hmmm…
So can we at least please please PLEASE agree that 6 years of Adobe rental is LESS than buying one box plus one upgrade in the same 6 years? BECAUSE IT’S LESS.
But let’s keep going.
Final Cut Studio 5 (also 2010): $1299 + the same 2 upgrades I assumed for CS @$299 (which is $598) = $1897.
But really, looking at Creative COW, it seems that most FCS users upgraded to 6 and 7 as well, so 4 x $299 = $1196, then add $1299 for the first purchase, and you’d have spent $2495.
Oops, plus $399.97 for FCPX, Motion, and Compressor, for a total of $2894.
So, yes, in round numbers, you saved $300-ish going Apple vs. Adobe. This is real money, but not enough to buy a Mac Pro…
…unless you’d have rented just Photoshop and After Effects, in which case you’d have spent as much as $800 MORE by going the Apple route.
STILL IRRELEVANT.
“First, when I talked about saving money, I was talking FCP X vs. CC, but I’ll go
back to that later. Even assuming I WAS comparing CC to the former CS suite,
you are making a TON of assumptions in your example! About how often I might be upgrading
for example. The fact that I am using a 2009 computer may give you a hint about my usual
attitude towards our ‘consumer driven’ culture of ‘always upgrading’, and ‘making sure you
have the latest version of the iPhone’. I also own a 20 year old car with a couple hundred
thousand miles on it. And I recently upgraded cameras from a PD150 to a FS700.
I’m saying this to point out, sure, in your specific example, with the specific
set of facts you are throwing out there,’CC’ may be cheaper but if it were REALLY
the case that ‘CC’ is ‘cheaper’ than the old way, why would Adobe have switched?
No, the real reason they switched is that there is a whole ‘nother set of facts out there.
Facts like people like me don’t give them enough money because we skip years and years
between upgrades. Mainly because I don’t need every new little bell and whistle like
‘Morph cut’ or ‘3D text’. I wait for upgrades that I actually need. Sometimes that takes
awhile. Adobe would rather I don’t ‘sit’ on that money, so they changed their way of doing
business. Now I either keep paying and hope their upgrades are ‘worth it’ or I move on to
someone else. Fair enough, I can understand that I am no longer their ‘target customer’.[Tim Wilson] “So, let’s sweep all this palaver off the table, and what have we got?
— That if you’d been “renting” the full boat of Adobe software for 6 years, you’d have paid LESS than if you bought 1 CS box plus 1 upgrade.
PAID LESS FOR RENTAL.
AND….any savings by going all-Apple vs. full Adobe would be wiped out by the Mac tax….
AND….there’s a pretty big swing in Adobe’s favor if you’re just renting PS + AE.
…and really, being really honest (HEY DENNIS LOOK OVER THERE) that APPEARS to be what most people here have been working with.
And yet…
THIS IS ALL RIDICULOUS. Buy whatever the hell you want. Don’t buy whatever the hell you want.
Just please don’t wave your hand over either the overwhelming expense of Adobe rental or the overwhelming savings of Apple stuff, because in more circumstances than not, it’s just not true.
“
Ah yes….now on to the Apple vs. Adobe cost (More expensive Apple computer and cheaper software vs.
cheaper PC and paying subscription every month), I know for a fact I have saved money,
How? One of my clients I do consulting for, hired me to spec them a PC for editing on Adobe,
(Ordered from Jeff Pulera at Safe Harbor and components recommended by him) then they
hired me to put it together in their edit bay for them, and then later install Adobe CC products on it for them
(They are not terribly computer savvy which is why they hired me). Also I’m sorry, but
‘just Photoshop and AE’ isn’t going to cut it when you actually have to….you know….edit video, so
they had to go with the more expensive option once CC came along. You want me to throw out numbers?
I can do that too. I paid $2000 for my 2009 Mac Pro from the Apple Store. They paid $1788 for their
PC, also in 2009. (I’m not counting my fee in this.). So with my specific set of facts, there was an
‘Apple tax’ of $222.
I’m basically breaking even with them at the end of 1 year of them having CC and me having
FCP X. Every year after that I’m saving money. I’m $1200 ‘to the good’ right now. That is ‘Real math’.
You seem to not like Apple and the decisions they have made with their editing software very much.
That’s understandable.I didn’t like it either. As a matter of fact, I disliked it so much, I bought a 2nd
hand version of Adobe CS6. Then the CC dropped and Adobe lost me as a customer as quickly
as they had stolen me from FCP 7 (which I upgraded to from FCP4). But there are ‘facts’ and there
are ‘facts’. Don’t make the mistake of assuming your facts are the same as everyone else’s.
Some people may save money with a PC and CC…..but there sure are a lot of possibilities
when you go with a PC. Some cheap. Others expensive. Some people who upgrade every
version or two may save or break even just on the software. Some people only need
Photoshop. But there are so many possible permutations of computers, software, and
needs of an editor that you saying:Just please don’t wave your hand over either the overwhelming expense of Adobe rental or
the overwhelming savings of Apple stuff, because in more circumstances than not, it’s just not true.seems, dare I say it, a bit presumptuous?
$400 for FCP X, Motion and Compressor? $600 a year for CC? $200 savings the first year and
$600 every year after that? Hmmm, I dunno, I guess it depends on your definition of ‘overwhelming savings’.[Tim Wilson] “Oh wait, I forgot. You bought a Mac Pro. If you’d bought an HP, okay, about the same price. But if you’d have bought a Dell (maybe not great advice in 2009, but I’m genuinely impressed with them now), you’d have saved the very real Mac Tax — potentially wiping out EVERY DIME of savings vs. your all-Apple scenario!!!!
I of course concede that the Dell can’t run FCPX, but you and David were talking about the Mac tax, so let’s talk about the Mac Tax. You simply can’t make the case that Mac + Apple software costs less than Windows computer + Adobe software.
This is true both because of the very real Mac tax, and because you haven’t done the actual math on how much you’ll spend over a given span with Adobe software.
“Actually, I HAVE done the math. It’s pretty simple actually. I need to edit video, so I can’t get by
with just ‘Photoshop and AE’. So I’d be paying $50 per month for CC. $600 per year. Which means
I am spending $200 more to go Adobe and PC the first year and $600 per year afterwards.
I am currently using as my main edit computer, a Mac from 2009. If I was to use my next Mac for
as long as I have used this one….it would be six years of service. And over that six years, I would save enough money to MORE than make up for any ‘Mac tax’.[Tim Wilson] “”Saving” by not spending means that if you’d dropped cable and gone to Netflix, you could have saved $7129 ($99*72). More than enough to buy 2 systems.
Or you could have sold one car to buy a cheaper one…or moved back in with your parents…or not have gone to college.
But money not spent is not the same as money saved. By not buying a Tesla, I COULD have put down a down-payment on a million dollar oceanfront condo, but in fact, I haven’t put enough money in my pocket to buy a box of Goobers, much less a Mac Pro.
Oh wait, I forgot. You bought a Mac Pro. If you’d bought an HP, okay, about the same price. But if you’d have bought a Dell (maybe not great advice in 2009, but I’m genuinely impressed with them now), you’d have saved the very real Mac Tax — potentially wiping out EVERY DIME of savings vs. your all-Apple scenario!!!!”
As for ‘money not spent’ vs. ‘money saved’ it seems you are missing my point. I’m not
talking about fictional choices like buying a Tesla or an oceanfront condo when you
don’t have the money for either. I’m talking about real choices…and when I don’t spend $50
a month on software subscriptions, that is $50 more I get to put into savings.
I have the ‘choice’ to save or spend that money I ‘didn’t spend, as I choose. And most
often, in my case, I actually do choose to save that money that ‘I could have spent’. I
suppose I could choose to spend it on a lens or a quadcopter or any one of a dozen other
things I’d ‘like’ to have, but just because other people end up spending any money they save
doesn’t mean it’s not possible to save that money. You make your choices and live with
them. I’m not sure if you are familiar with the PFD, but every year, each and every Alaskan
gets a check in the mail. The state shares out part of the money they took in from oil with
each and every resident. Way back when oil money was flowing in, many government
officials wanted to spend it. But, several politicians convinced everyone, that
instead of spending the money when they got it, the state would put it in a big account,
and now, they use a PORTION of the INTEREST on that savings account, to send each and
every resident of Alaska a check…..every year. We just got it this year on Oct. 1st and it
was $2072. Every big screen TV store, furniture store, travel agency and car dealer run ‘specials’
to convince people to part with this money, it’s like the biggest freaking shopping day you
ever saw….Black Friday on crack. This is money we get because many years ago,
some government officials in Alaska, decided that ‘money not spent’ should be saved.
If government of all things, can learn this lesson, it should be a lesson more people in this
consumerism society of ours could do well to adopt.And cable? I got rid of that 8 years ago and have saved much more than your numbers
by going with Netflix. Alaska cable TV markup and all.Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com -
“… I thought you were trying to prompt discussion about non-tech advancements/changes in editing which is why your laptop comment confused me.”
Me, too. I think that if you limit the discussion to NLEs, then I don’t see too much that Apple has done that is truly disruptive as a function of software design. Sure, FCP1-7 was disruptive to the industry because of cost and the elimination of hardware dependency (other than Apple’s). But in terms of design, it copied Premiere and Media Composer. If you look at X, it was a massive change, but still one that was more evolutionary than revolutionary. In the end, it’s simply another option and not something that’s a must-have in order to move into the future.
Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
FCP 1-7 was sure as heck revolutionary in terms of cost. Ask an ex Media Composer dealer. How many people were editing video before FCP Legacy and how many afterward? It was a democratization, which many might dislike, I for one at the time, but it was a revolution. These upheavals aren’t always felt from advances in software and hardware, but in the cost and access equations. And besides, two of the three NLE’s you mention were designed by Randy Ubillos. Copies from the same father. At the time of the ascendance of FCP and it’s dominance of the broad middle and higher end, Premiere was pretty much a toy. Avid was the high end. I used to make at least 15k on every MC1000 I sold, including peripherals. Hard to lose that, but you can’t stop a successful revolution. You have to adapt.
FCP was a revolution, and, from my perspective, so is FCPX. My Macs will last at least 6 years and run FCPX at the current and most likely future versions for at least that long. I have three Macs that will run it still under Applecare, one MBP Retina this week. If the past is prologue, there may not even be upgrade costs for FCPX. On top of that I would have bought the Macs anyway for my photo business https://www.jimwiseman.com. I have several galleries selling prints at $500 up a pop.
If you have the cash flow to keep renting forever, be my guest. I’m sure it works for some. But disappearing projects and the specter of no further work unless you keep paying are a brick wall for me, and I think for many others.
Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17″ 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems -
[Jim Wiseman] “FCP 1-7 was sure as heck revolutionary in terms of cost.”
I think I stated that. Just not a revolution in design, IMHO.
[Jim Wiseman] “And besides, two of the three NLE’s you mention were designed by Randy Ubillos. Copies from the same father.”
Actually no. The original Premiere up through 4.2 were Ubilios’ design and FCP 1.0 was Ubilos. However, FCP was very much a copy of the UI design used in Premiere 5.0, which itself was a rip-off of Media Composer’s design. That version of Premiere was not from Ubilos.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Steve Connor] “Apple software designers creating things to make you buy a new computer from them? Disregarding those who have older systems? I’m not sure I’d be happy with a Company that did that. OK you’re not paying rentals, but you have to pay the “Apple Tax” to get the best out of it.”
Sure you can parse it that way.
Another equally valid way to think about it is= to acknowledge that they are constantly being given better processors, better GPUs, more and faster RAM, SSDs and bigger pipes to push the data through.
That means that both todays software designers (them) and “judgement workers” (us) have an ever expanding hunger for better faster and cheaper ways to do things.
IF the delta between a 3 year old laptop and a 3 week old one was modest, then you could effectively argue that they’re just making stuff to move new boxes.
But when our machines capabilities are positively SOARING – to do less than build in best in class performance AND make your software revisions linked to whats currently possible – is just ill-serving your customer base IMO.
With taxes, you generally pay the same over long stretches but get very little incremental improvement in return. In modern computing, a single change – say swapping out a mechanical HD for an SSD – can change the whole performance profile of your daily work.
With modern computing, you invest in new stuff, and you sometimes get WILD performance increases.
The last time I had to go back and edit on FCP Legacy – that couldn’t have been more starkly clear. ; )
Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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[Bill Davis] “IF the delta between a 3 year old laptop and a 3 week old one was modest, then you could effectively argue that they’re just making stuff to move new boxes.
But when our machines capabilities are positively SOARING …..
…The last time I had to go back and edit on FCP Legacy – that couldn’t have been more starkly clear. ; )”While that’s certainly true when comparing old Apple software to new Apple software, it’s not necessarily true when comparing old to new of other brands.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
Randy obviously had a lot to do with the look and feel of Premiere. I was unaware of which version was his last. Thanks for that, Oliver. It appears he left Adobe for Macromedia after 4.x was released and while 5 was in development. It does look as if he worked on 5 before going there. I Googled and found this on Wikipedia from the Final Cut Pro entry:
“Randy Ubillos created the first three versions of Adobe Premiere, the first popular digital video editing application.[5] Before version 5 was released, Ubillos’ group was hired by Macromedia to create KeyGrip, built from the ground up as a more professional video-editing program based on Apple QuickTime. Macromedia could not release the product without causing its partner Truevision some issues with Microsoft, as KeyGrip was, in part, based on technology from Microsoft licensed to Truevision and then in turn to Macromedia. The terms of the IP licensing deal stated that it was not to be used in conjunction with QuickTime. Thus, Macromedia was forced to keep the product off the market until a solution could be found. At the same time, the company decided to focus more on applications that would support the web, so they sought to find a buyer for their non-web applications, including KeyGrip, which by 1998 was renamed Final Cut.”
Apple eventually purchased KeyGrip and as it says above renamed it Final Cut.
I was a Macromedia and Apple VAR as well as an Avid and Media 100 reseller at that time and got a behind the scenes look at KeyGrip during its development at the Macromedia offices in SF. It was quite impressive even in early Beta. It is also ironic that it was designed to run on both Mac and Windows, and was to be the Windows software version for Media 100, the main reason I was interested in seeing it. Needless to say, the acquisition by Apple put Media 100 very far behind in acquiring/writing a Windows version for their very good i/o hardware card(s).
Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17″ 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems -
A bit of an applicable read – Adobe vs. Apple:
https://medium.com/@ElephantSpeed/adobe-v-avid-nle-wars-9307edeee9e5
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
Good article. Thanks. Nothing to disagree with here. No mention of Apple, though. Do you see Avid or Adobe as Apple in this scenario (I actually don’t see that), or just as a lesson in how to judge an editing system and it’s suitability to your own particular workflow and production requirements? That I think it does well, but I don’t get the reference to Apple. Maybe I am being obtuse.
Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17″ 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems -
[Jim Wiseman] “No mention of Apple, though.”
Well, it was based on floor presence at IBC. Apple simply is nonexistent in that case. Of course the article was centered in the niche of feature film editing. In spite of a few outliers, I think X won’t get much traction with that niche. In fact, I think it will get less traction than FCP 7 had earned.
[Jim Wiseman] “but I don’t get the reference to Apple”
Well, maybe a stretch on my part. I guess my point is that there’s value in the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” approach.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
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