-
what’s better sdi or firewire?
-
[Bob Zelin] “You will never see a professional facility using anything other than HDSDI, with RS422 control. If you are a news reporter in the field, or a student,or on a very low budget,
firewire will work for you.”Bob I just love your absolute statements like they are the law.
Broadcast series are being cut using the Firewire workflow so I would say that constitutes a “professional” use of the DVCPro HD. So I would then consider the facility cutting a broadcast series a “professional” facility.
Your statement would have been perfectly acceptable maybe five years ago in the “old school” ways of doing things. At one time only very large facilities with big machine rooms and row of edit suites would be considered “professional.” Now boutiques and home-based facilities are cutting feature films and broadcast television. Most of these are not low-budget and certainly not low quality.
Obviously you’re free to say what you want (and I know you will) but the world of “absolute law” in video production is long gone.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.comNow in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
-
Sorry to burst your bubble, Bob, but with all due respect, I am running a (small) broadcast editing facility which includes both SDI and FW patchability according to the workflow covered in this topic, with SD and HD. granted, I don’t have to send a FW signal 100 meters up from two floors below, but with centralizing media drives, CPUs and decks in a single machine room makes the feasability of working within the 1394 pathway when appropriate entirely ..um… feasable. The only things that ‘stretch’ are high quality VGA and USB extender cables from machine room to edit room.
I’m sure I don’t have the volume or scale of work that most of you guys here seem to be enjoying, but I’m managing just fine, and I could easily imagine a scaled up version of what I do working equally as well. I just don’t know why most people in a similar boutique environment don’t ‘go’ patchbay with their firewire. It’s a no brainer, and cheap! No muss, no fuss!
steve covello
double wide post -
The idea of constantly crawling on the floor and disconnecting cabling does seem pretty silly (unless you in fact have a Firewire patch bay) and you have your equipment centralized in a machine room, where you can run your multiple MAC G5 CPU’s to a FW400 bay, and patch the single HD VTR (like the HD1200) into these VTR’s. I can only assume that users like Walter own a Firewire 400 interface device, like an AJA I/O or I/O LA, and must disconnect the AJA box to hookup the HD1200 (or other FW400 devices) when he wants to use them. If you own the gear, and no one else is using it, I guess this is what happens, but when you are in a multi user enviornment, bringing everything to bays (or a router) just makes sense. If you have 2 or more FCP HD systems, and are sharing a single HD1200, then you either have Gefen (for example) KVM extenders for your CPU’s to keep the firewire legnth short for the HD VTR, or you pick up the deck each time, and bring it from room to room, recabling each time you want to use it.
Please don’t give the misconception that you simply buy one TecNec $120 firewire patch bay, and you are done. Multi room use of equipment requires all kinds of stuff.
Bob Zelin
-
[Bob Zelin] “The idea of constantly crawling on the floor and disconnecting cabling does seem pretty silly (unless you in fact have a Firewire patch bay) and you have your equipment centralized in a machine room, where you can run your multiple MAC G5 CPU’s to a FW400 bay, and patch the single HD VTR (like the HD1200) into these VTR’s”
Maybe I’m missing something here, but I can’t find the part in either my posts or weevie’s posts where we describe crawling around the floor to connect and disconnect cables. Again, maybe I’m missing something, but you seem to be responding to comments that aren’t even in our posts. I would prefer you stick to the actual comments that are in everyone’s posts (and I mean all threads, not just this one) and stop adding “assumptions” such as your comment above.
[Bob Zelin] “I can only assume that users like Walter own a Firewire 400 interface device, like an AJA I/O or I/O LA, and must disconnect the AJA box to hookup the HD1200 (or other FW400 devices) when he wants to use them.”
Bob, you obviously don’t know my facility so don’t “assume” anything. But for the record, your assumption is wrong.
[Bob Zelin] “If you have 2 or more FCP HD systems, and are sharing a single HD1200, then you either have Gefen (for example) KVM extenders for your CPU’s to keep the firewire legnth short for the HD VTR, or you pick up the deck each time, and bring it from room to room, recabling each time you want to use it.”
So if I read you right, this is a completely unacceptable way to conduct business? Why? Sure it’s not the ideal way to do this, but it’s easy enough to have cables waiting at each location. And if you’re doing the Firewire workflow, you’re talking about 2 cables, power and firewire.
The 1200A is a very small device and essentially a portable deck. It’s not an F500 HDCAM deck or even an old UVW-1800 which would be quite cumbersome to port around the re-cable each time.
[Bob Zelin] “Please don’t give the misconception that you simply buy one TecNec $120 firewire patch bay, and you are done. Multi room use of equipment requires all kinds of stuff.”
Actually it doesn’t seem to require an inordinate about of equipment. I’m working with ProMax right now to improve our video / audio / control routing for our suites. Seems to be a pretty straight-forward solution if you work with the folks with the right know-how.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.comNow in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
-
Let’s see: all computers, AJA, decks and drives, Xserve RAID and ethernet within 6 feet of each other in one location with clean power and a/c; all fw ports connected to fw patch bay; all SDI and analog A/V connections connected to patch with ‘efficient’ use of normalizing frequent connections (insert Sigma router here for Tier 1 service); all VGA, USB repeater and A/V reference cables extended to rooms. On some projects, there are dedicated FW800 drives connected directly to G5.
Music, stock video and sfx libraries on dedicated drives patchable to either room regardless of which editing system being used. Each room can be either Avid or FCP as needed — room 1 has Avid Meridien G4 on D-sub A, and FCP-HD Kona 2/AfterEffects G5 on D-sub B, KVM hot key to switch kybd, wacom, mouse to either system; room 2 has FCP-HD via AJA or DV on one partition, and Avid DV on the other of the same G5, separate media drives for each. Although let the record show that I HATE Avid DV.
No machine noise in any rooms, no moving decks around, no machines overheating the rooms, no crawling around patching fw cables.
Bob, I don’t quite get it. What am I doing wrong here? This works like a dream, even if it’s only two edit rooms. If it were 4 rooms, what’s the diff? 8 rooms? OK, there will be clamoring for equipment use sometimes, but that is surely an inconvenience of success I would gladly live with and would rent accordingly.
If were running 8 rooms, maybe I would go with a SAN solution of some sort. But with editors wanting to work off site and FW drives so cheap, I think I’m better off with a simpler more flexible setup for offline and keep the K2 room dedicated for finishing and ‘big’ client sessions.
Any other suggestions?
steve covello
double wide post -
What is your set up Bob?
Perhaps we can all learn a thing or two?
David
-
Steve –
you are doing NOTHING wrong here – but you obviously have a standard central machine room, with audio patch bays, video patch bays, a Firewire 400 patch bay, as well as a Sigma router, and KVM’s for EACH of your edit systems. You probably have all of this mounted in several racks, with UPS’s on everything.My whole point was this is NOT a simple system. I don’t want to give anyone the impression that building a facility is as simple as one firewire cable. If you and Walter have chosen to use Firewire as your I/O for your FCP HD systems, instead of HD-SDI via your Kona 2, then God bless you – that’s not my choice, but I absolutely don’t want to give anyone the impression that building a multi room facility, such as yours, is as simple as a couple of G5’s and a firewire cable, that you drag a VTR around from room to room. Your model of a central machine room, with centralized patching and normalized connections to the most commonly used devices in both HDSDI, SDI, component, and composite is the correct model.
And it requires LOTS of wires, lots of equipment. Not just a single firewire cable.With all of that said (and with your obvious investment), I am still surprised that you don’t use HD SDI to go into your Kona 2, since you obviously have the patch system already in place.
Bob Zelin
-
What is your set up Bob?
Perhaps we can all learn a thing or two?
David
The type of system that I usually setup for most companies is almost identical to what Steve Covello describes. I usually start with Middle Atlantic racks. Each rack contains a Powerware PW5125 or APC Smart UPS 1500 on the bottom. Video patch bays are Canare 242U-DVJAW, which handle everything thru HDSDI, and are the least expensive video bays on the market that can handle HD. Audio patch bays are ADC PPA1 series solder point bays (long frame 1/4″, but I often get requests for Bantam, where I use the PPB series). I bring all RS422 points up to a CAT 5e coupler patch bay, either from TecNec or ADC. The Tecnec model that is reliable is the PB8-R4R4. Firewire 400 bays are Tecnec 8XFW 16XFW, which too have been reliable. I have not tried the new ADC firewire patch bays. I have been using Gefen KVM extenders. For new MAC G5’s with the dual DVI ports, I use the Gefen CAT 5 5000 HD, which works very well. I realize that there are cheaper KVM’s on the market, like Hall Research, etc., but I have had good luck with the Gefen series.
For drives, I have stopped using Lacie FW800 drives, in favor of G-Tech and StorCase. For SATA, I have found that Firmtek Seritek (with Hitachi drives) and the Sonnet Tempo X eSATA 8 port have been reliable. For SCSI array’s, the combo of a HUGE U320RX with an ATTO UL4D is unbeatable. I am not an Apple XServe fan.
For monitoring, I have been using AJA HDP HD-SDI converters with either Sony SDM-P234b or Apple Cinema 23″ monitors, even though I LOVE the “old”
Sony PVM-20L5/1.For those looking for routers, I have also found that Sigma Electronics offers an excellent value vs. performance. Their SDI routers handle the embedded audio as well. I have not yet tried the Blackmagic Videohub, but I am anxious to do so. I have certainly used Kramer (also sold under Ocean Matrix and Comprehensive Video) routers, which certainly work, but
I don’t have the confidence in this line compared to Sigma.And what’s the moral of all of this nonsense here – ITS COMPLEX AND EXPENSIVE to build a nice editing facility – you just don’t stick a firewire cable in the back of a G5, and say “I’m in the TV business”.
Bob Zelin
-
>>With all of that said (and with your obvious investment), I am still surprised that you don’t use HD SDI to go into your Kona 2, since you obviously have the patch system already in place. << Who said I don't? Point is, if the project lends itself to a FW connection vs. SDI, the choice is there. Heck, I don't even have a 1200a in the first place (HDCam), so the only purpose of FW for the time being is for SD DV. But the setup allows for a rental 1200a to slot right in without disconnecting anything already established in the system. I think the only reason I posted my 'uptight' response was that I got the impression from you that those of us who set things up a particular way are unprofessional, and I am suggesting that the definition of professional is more defined by an understanding of the needs of clients and how THEY want to do their projects and the editors who do them. Also, there is a transition in the muturity of the talent pool where, say, as little as three years ago, most people would presume (well, maybe I would) that an Avid editor was more experienced and 'better' than an FCP editor. Now, the same presumption cannot be said to be true categorically. So I feel I have to be prepared either way. And it still annoys the hell out of me that my favorite editor insists on working in Avid DV Express and will not learn FCP. AAAARRRGGGGG!!! Your knowledge, Bob, is highly respected by this guy who types as we speak, so don't think I'm being oppositional for my own self-aggrandizing. I only find that when a facility owner says that their setup is the way everyone else should accommodate, it seems counter-productive. steve covello double wide post
-
Excellent post steve (or weevie, whichever you prefer). All points well made and you really sum it up for many of the “new generation” facilities, as I like to call them.
[weevie833] “Your knowledge, Bob, is highly respected by this guy who types as we speak, so don’t think I’m being oppositional for my own self-aggrandizing. I only find that when a facility owner says that their setup is the way everyone else should accommodate, it seems counter-productive.”
Actually, from all of Bob’s posts I think he’s a sales rep or owner of a VAR, but he’ll let us know for sure.
Your point in that last statement applies to many sales reps I’ve met in the past as well. Because a multi-million dollar facility has such and such option, then that’s what all the facilities in town must have it too even if you don’t really need it. I now have a single sales rep here in Atlanta that I work with because he listens to my needs and presents good options, not just the most expensive ones.
He’s David Strupp with the WH Platts Co. and he respects that I’m spending very hard-earned money. Instead of looking to pad his commission, he ensures that I get the right products for my needs at the absolute best price.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.comNow in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up