What was the point of this Andrew Kramer? Frame Rate Converter

[Joe Moya]

What? Your eyes and brain can’t pick up that 6 frame per second difference? 😉

Well… not to touch off the never ending debate of 24 vs. 30 fps debate… but, you seemed have found the obvious when it comes to the “film” look.

IMO, The film look is less about the frame rate and more about the color saturation and DOF focus. It’s about lighting and camera moves… and, much less about frame rate. Frame rate for film was created at a 24 fps to save on film useage… Less film is used when you shooting at 24fps than 30fps… and, back in the old days this was a significant savings. However, in todays digital world… the fps is less of an issue.

Sooo… what’s the deal? Well… the deal is that the “film” look is not so much about frame rate as it is about the overall feel of the image in terms of color, focus, lighting, etc.

All that being said… I am sure some will disagree, but in IMHO… frame rate is over rated. In fact, to prove my point at one time, I actually claimed my 30 fps video was shot at 24 and not one person could tell it actually wasn’t. However, if I took that same video and removed the extensive color correction and DOF changes out… well, instantly those who thought is was shot at 24 would say it was shot at 30fps. IMO, the average veiwer can not pick up a 6 fps difference… however, I do believe it is possible for an experienced film editor to (just maybe) pick up on this difference (assuming that is the only change you make to the film).

FWIW Joe Moya

[Sean Harper]

Well I can usually pick up on that 6 fps difference, but I mean I don’t think it affected the footage. Or It might have, I’ll let you be the judge of that- Here are 2 random clips I made really fast so I could test frame Rate-

This is the original at 29.97-

Messing Around from Sean Harper on Vimeo.

And here is the other at 23.976 (i think)-

Untitled from Dark Water Films on Vimeo.
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I realize the Camera work/lighting/everything else isn’t good but shouldn’t there be a subtle difference between frame rates?

And also, whenever I render out a comp with Andrew’s frame Rate converter attached to it it increases the render time of small compositions like this one 10 fold- How do I make it render faster?

I’ll make some great things with this

[Joe Moya]

If you want to know for sure that you have a 24fps conversion… you can use video inspector (a freeware) to find out.

But, to visually tell if you have 24fps can not be done unless you put it side by side a 30fps and have an experience editor’s eye… In the real world, you never present a video as a side by side comparison between a 30 to 24. Video is shown as a 30 or 24 only. As a result, without the comparison… the average person can’t tell if it’s 24 or 30.

Eventhough a 24-30 difference is not that noticeable for most, it could still have some value for some purests who think it is important and adds something to the final film. I prefer to either shoot in 30 or 60i. And, add the film like effect with color, DOF, etc. and if someone asks (…which is almost always a film videophile-like person) I tell them it is 24 (I’ve never had anyone tell me I was wrong – yet). As for 60i… I only use that when I want to create the best slow motion I can with a consumer level camera.

As for rendering time… I have never use AE to achieve a 30 to 24 change… but, I have experimented by using other editing software and all methods I have used seem to take the kind of render time you have indicated. Again… I don’t this very often since it really doesn’t seem to add enough to the film look to justify the added render time.

[Sean Harper]

ok, this Frame Rate Converter is way to taxing on my render time so I need to ask-

Is it possible to achieve the same 24 fps look by just slowing your videos down by like 2% in premiere?

And if I do decide to wait 9 hours for a video to render in 24p then is there a way to sync the audio?

I’ll make some great things with this

[Joe Moya]

Kind of depends upon how Premeir calculates the fps change in the process of “slowing down” the film to a 24 equivalent.

I use Avid/Pinacle Liquid and it has about 6 different levels/types of time warping/slow motion options… and, each give a slightly different results depending upon the makeup of the original footage.

The only suggestion I can make is to try the 2% slower approach out and see if you notice the difference… which come to think about, …this brings us full circle to question … does a 24 fps/2% slower frame rate make a noticable difference when compared to 30 fps/100% speed.

Joe Moya

[Todd Connaghan]

ok my take on this is that if you already have say some 24p footage and have some 60i or whatever you can convert say the 60i to conform wit the 24p vice verus … i hope this gives a little insight

[Joe Moya]

My take on this is you should work with what you have…

If you have 24 – use it and make a visual message with that frame rate.

If you have 30/60i – use it and make a visual message with that frame rate.

In the end… the quality of the visual effect is determined more by so many other factors other than frame rate. Frame rate is pretty far down the correlation scale when most judge it to be a good film or a bad film. Converting to a different frame rate will not make that much of a difference if the original idea is poorly excuted.

Success is not defined by the frame rate… conversion to a 24 frame rate will not make it look cinematic if the concept is not presented from a cinematic direction and production format. And, even if you do approach it from a cinematic direction/production, …the 24 frame rate will not significantly improve on that approach.

[Larry S. evans ii]

I’ve seen this same discussion on so many boards (and heaven forbid anyone start trying to define “HD”).

I actually haven’t used this utility, because, as a lot of people have mentioned, it doesn’t instantly give you that “film look”. There are a number of other utils that create frame rate changes, ranging from free to high-priced, and well, honestly, you can render out a different frame rate from After Effects.

The legitimate need for changing frame rates is to match something that was shot in one frame rate to something that was shot in another. That is, if you had something that was shot with a video camera at 30i, and you need to comp that with film shot at 24p, you really need to change one of those frame rates.

Now, who is actually doing that?

If you shot film, and went to the time and expense of having it digitized, in today’s market you digitized it at 24p. So you edit in 24p.

If, on the other hand, you shot video and need to have it transferred back to actual film, then you are best served by paying the frequently high price of having a professional house master it out. While it still won’t be “filmic” it’s going to look better than what you’ll do with a desktop app and freeware. Additionally, you are already going to be paying that house for the print, so why not pony up the extra to make the print worth something?

I do a lot of 3D animation that gets comped to “real” footage. Every app I have, including some cheaper over-the-counter ones, allows me to output at variable frame rates, so all I have to do is match the one I’m using.

It didn’t used to be that way, and I think that’s why a lot of folks have gotten hung up on frame rates. I’ve had DP friends swear that the XL-2 with “true 24p” looks more “filmic” than the same shot made by my XL-1 at 30i, but truthfully, I don’t think the difference is significant enough to swap out the camera for that alone.

Film, and the “film look” has gained a certain cache; it lends credibility or legitimacy to a project because it generally means that you had the budget to pay for hundreds of feet of film, rented cameras, lab fees, editing time, etc. that speaks of something “bigger”.

Purists will argue for the “artfulness” of film, but then artistic purists argued that it was “too real” when it was invented, and threatened to put all the painters out of work. We ended up with the Impressionist movement from that, so it’s not all bad.

Digital tools can not only effectively mimic the look of film (largely because they must comp digital “reality” to filmed action) but can now surpass it, and the digital tools operate with the precision of the bit. Color timing effects that used to be executed only tentatively by the best labs are now becoming true narrative devices, and that is only one example of how the digital/video toolset is extending our creative capacities over “just film”.

If you want your consumer camcorder to look like a Hollywood epic, at least as much as is possible, then digital tools can help in many ways. But people shouldn’t attempt to mimic a format simply because that’s the way it’s always been done. That’s the path to artistic sterility. What if Van Gogh had spent all his time just trying to match what the camera produced? We’d be a much poorer society artistically.

Larry S. Evans II
Executive Producer
Digital I Productions

[John Sullivan]

Andrew Kramer’s “plugin” is nothing more than a script for After Effects. It’s something you can do manually using AE’s TimeWarp effect plugin. The script he made just allows you to simply punch in your source and target frame rates and the expression will determine what the speed setting will be on TimeWarp plugin. If you watch the tutorial on this you will see he gives the expression to you towards the end.

And by the way, I used this technique and it takes 3x longer than Twixtor. And even Twixtor takes too darn long.

But I know a much better way of getting a good result. First of all, 30p can look every bit as good as 24p. Native 24p looks best of all because its shot that way from the get go. But messing with frames to convert 30p to 24p will either look like crap or no different at all. I take m2ts avchd 60i footage and deinterlace it using TomsMoComp using Avisynth. And I tried every plugin out there. This is the best and the fastest. It gives superb progressive looking footage. You end up with a 60p file. I then throw the resulting file into Virtualdub and go up to the video menu > FrameRate. In there you can choose to decimate by 2. Then you can resave the file into whatever format you want. You end up with the smoothest 30p file and to me looks more pleasing than converting to a broken 24p file.

If anyone looks at a 30p file and thinks it looks like video, then they dont know how to shoot video like film.