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What format (codec) to deliver
We are currently shooting with HD Tape cameras. Sony HDcam and Panasonic HD Varicam. We are freelance shooters so at the end of the day we hand the field producers, or segment directors, or agency guy some tapes. Then they leave…
Usually they take the tapes and edit them often on Final Cut systems either at their facility or at a post house.
Now we are considering purchase of the RED, Silicon Imaging, Vision research, type cameras. Where the output is on hard disks. So at the end of the day (or later that evening) we (expect/hope)to copy the images to a portable firewire drive, and send or deliver (fedex) the drive to the producer.
We see one cool advantage to this. While the drive is in transit we still have the original images on our computer so the footage can’t get lost on the way back to their facility. These cameras make very nice images which use some wavelet technology and look pretty good from the original codec. Otherwise we are not too sure how producers will feel about this, or how much difficulty this presents for us. So several related questions:
1. What are the likely workflows and digital format (codec) outputs we are going to need to put on the producers drives For FCP?
2. Will this require a lot of rendering time and our ownership of a really high end computer with Gflops of drive space??? Can we use a PC to do this. or do we have to have a mac also. Since some of our clientele edit on PC systems (Premiere)
3. About how many minutes per gig, are we going to be able to fit on the portable firewire drive that we send? (so we can see how this compares with sending tape: HD tape @ about $50 per 30min usual 2 hrs per day = $200 as opposed to loaning drives(which cost?) to the producer and paying fedex both ways.)
4. Can the producer/post house easily make a backup on HD tape of pieces they like but do not want in the show for their library.
5. Will this be appealing to Producers. why or why not?
Thanks for your help!
Thomas -
5 Replies
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I think the technical aspect of this camera is as yet undetermined. as the final specs and fleshed out, nor is the camera. Who knows if FCP will support native editing of the Red camera codecs. The camera, at this point, is too new and the codecs are still being developed, written and tweaked.
As far as delivering tapeless formats, it’s being done by people shooting Sony XDCam and Panasonic P2 already. If you need to deliver tapeless, then you simply copy to a hard drive or burn multiple DVDs for your clients. It’s up to you to figure out what they need. A DP buddy of mine has a small RAID1 external PATA raid that he copies his footage too. He keeps a drive and hands another drive to the producer/client/footage carrier. That way if the drive goofs up, he has a back up just like you mentioned.
Jeremy
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Ditto what Jeremy posted, it’s too early. Producers work in the here and now time frame, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it! Eventually these new formats will be in place and have full support from end to end but anyone using it until then can be prepared to expend a lot of time, money and energy getting going with it.
But FWIW IMHO
[Thomas] “1. What are the likely workflows and digital format (codec) outputs we are going to need to put on the producers drives For FCP? “
You need the proposed “Redcine” or “Phantom” etc. software from the manufacturers. You need to wait for support for jpeg2000 and avc from apple, adobe and other application makers for support from these other cameras also coming out.
[Thomas] “2. Will this require a lot of rendering time and our ownership of a really high end computer with Gflops of drive space??? Can we use a PC to do this. or do we have to have a mac also. Since some of our clientele edit on PC systems (Premiere)”
If you plan to work on 4K – 10K you do. throughput is something like 350mbs for 4K. Lots of storage and multiple fast processors. PC or Mac should do but that depends on the app. itself. Your clients or anyone working in this resolution will need big power. For cameras utilizing jpeg2000 or avc codecs at the HD level it will be more efficeint than present HD formats so current systems will handle it.
[Thomas] “3. About how many minutes per gig, are we going to be able to fit on the portable firewire drive that we send? (so we can see how this compares with sending tape: HD tape @ about $50 per 30min usual 2 hrs per day = $200 as opposed to loaning drives(which cost?) to the producer and paying fedex both ways.)”
The way of the future is internet delivery. We need to lobby our government to provide higher bandwidth at lower user fees like countries like Korea operate. ie: government subsidized 10mbs bandwidth (projected up to 50mbs within a year). Othewise your service bureau or post house will have these capabilities and you pay them to send it electronically instead of physical tape delivery. Failing this technology coming on board in north america, 1000GB HDD’s are comming out soon at a cost of $400.00. These will continue to get much bigger and cheaper in leaps and bounds. Phantom is talking about 512GB solidstate recorders in 1/4 2007!
[Thomas] “4. Can the producer/post house easily make a backup on HD tape of pieces they like but do not want in the show for their library.”
It’s all data but in the case of 4K it’s a lot of data but it can be backed up at lower HD res. Jpeg2000 offers a degree of lossless compression ultimatly as high as 8K but at what level of resolution and compression by the cameras remains to be seen.
[Thomas] “5. Will this be appealing to Producers. why or why not?
Thanks for your help!”A simple way to look at this is as if you will now be shooting with a Pannavision or comparable S35mm film camera without the high cost of buying, processing and digitizing the film. The workflow will be the same as shooting film but after the digitizing is done. This will be gross overkill for many clients needs but will offer a few clients new horizons. With the proposed Redcine SW you will be able to scale output to suit your clients needs.
[Jaws] “We’re gonna need a bigger boat!”
Presently, shooting HD affords us the luxury of RT monitoring on HD monitors alleviating film rushes and providing real world confirmation of lighting ratios, perspective, dof etc. which now can adjusted on set. When’s the last time you used your $1000.00 light meter?(WYSIWYG) What graphics cards do we have to display the 4K output? Perhaps Apple’s rumored 50″LCD powered by a mac pro with 4 graphics cards can do it for say $10-15K but otherwise we will need scalers and other periphials to handle all the data in real time. If you are curently shooting film this still could be cheaper but for those aquiring in HD there will be a considerable cost factor in the 1st years to take full advantage of 4K over HD.
Cameras incorporating intra frame compression like jpeg2000 and avc will give us all the advantages of present HD but at much smaller bandwidths and therefore will be more affordable to work with through the production line. We just have to wait for our apps. to get on board with support.
Steve Jobs made some murmerings at macworld about really big things coming out with the desktops in the following months, perhaps we’ll see quad quads and a quad link card from aja for full support for this new breed of cinema tools. NAB 2007 should be mind boggling.
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Hi Thomas,
There are piles of codecs out there right now. However, the most truely universal method is to save the movies out
as DPX frames. These are the most portable, across several platforms. You also have the ability to do filmouts from HD if you wish.
Most DI houses require the DPX format when doing Color Grading. DPX is also uncompressed, so there is no loss of image
quality. The format also supports several types of metadata to be embeded into the file. Some include directors notes,
video signal and video color information, Reel/Take name info, etc.Other advantages include Timecode support, plugin availability for Photoshop, AfterEffects, Final Cut Pro, Shake, Flame/Inferno etc.,
and sequences that can be broken up across several firewire devices. (DPX saves a frame per file, instead of one big monolithic
file Gigabytes in size.) These files are readable on just about every platform used in production.The DPX file is typically 8.5 Megs/frame for 1080 sized images. 720p should be 3.7Megs/frame.
Lastly, just about every studio and facility out there knows how to work with DPX files.
It is a widely used format around the world. Generally, you can hand a drive to a facility that you haven’t worked with
before, and they will have no problems reading them.Bob..
Robert Monaghan
Glue Tools
http://www.gluetools.com
Santa Barbara, CA -
Robert thank you for the very exact expert and useful information!
Thomas -
Not a problem!
I think that frame based workflows are about to be the “new” (old) standard.
I’ve been seeing a very sudden resurgence of interest in DPX. A lot of compression formats
come and go, but Cineon and DPX have been around for almost 15 – 20 years.Its a well understood and reliable format.
Feel free to drop me a note. Email address is on my website.
bob.
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