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weird shoes, FCPX, and the sheep barn.
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[Walter Soyka] “I think you are thinking like an editor. This makes a lot of sense when you’re only applying one of each effect per clip, but it’s less clear to me as a designer and compositor how it should be handled when you require multiple effects on the same clip.”
Me? Like an editor? Why the hell would I do such a thing? And what of it? 🙂
In this particular job, and on almost every green screen job I do, and I imagine if you are getting mattes together for live action footage, at some point you are going to need a levels filter. For MoGraph? Probably not, but for live action compositing you will need to create a matte at some point.
[Walter Soyka] “Treating a pixel-altering effect as an intrinsic property of a layer locks you into a fixed render pipeline*. Does the levels/curves/3wayCC render before or after other effects? What if you want to apply it in between other effects on the layer?”
If a levels filter was on every clip, that doesn’t mean I need to use it, it would also mean it would be on the layer that I DO need to use it on (thus controlling the render pipeline, as you say), or you add an adjustment layer, or whatever it is you need to do to get it in the right place. In Ae’s layer based workflow, I don’t see this is a problem, you can also precompose and disassociate one layer from another, just like we have to do in Ae today. Or, you can simply add another instance of the levels where you need it in the stacking order and get your adjustment out of it.
Let me ask, when you do live action composting, where do you do your color matching?
[Walter Soyka] “but I am saying that I think NLEs and compositors handle this problem differently on purpose.”
Surely, but of course. In a layer based system, there are ways to get the render order just as you need, it happens in FCPX as well and it does not prevent me from getting the job done. Most of the time, having most of the parameters I need ay my fingertips is worth not being able to move the color board/luminance up and down the render order. There are so many ways to handle it, including making a semi-transparent matte and comping back the original for the fill.
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[Andy Neil] “tend to rustle Aindreas’s jimmies”
indeed they do. best phrase on the internet that.
https://x4.fjcdn.com/comments/3468386+_f78f7d1902cfc6dc3173135e184ab019.png
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Jeremy Garchow] “If a levels filter was on every clip, that doesn’t mean I need to use it, it would also mean it would be on the layer that I DO need to use it on (thus controlling the render pipeline, as you say), or you add an adjustment layer, or whatever it is you need to do to get it in the right place. In Ae’s layer based workflow, I don’t see this is a problem, you can also precompose and disassociate one layer from another, just like we have to do in Ae today. Or, you can simply add another instance of the levels where you need it in the stacking order and get your adjustment out of it.”
But if you have an intrinsic levels property which you ignore and use a levels effect in effect stack, then don’t you have two different places on the same layer where you might look for levels controls? And if you do the work on an adjustment layer instead, now you have four places that the levels work could be done?
[Jeremy Garchow] “Let me ask, when you do live action composting, where do you do your color matching?”
I do all my composting in the back yard. (Gotcha again!)
I’d do this work in the compositor, but the effects/nodes/tools I’d use and the order I’d use them in could vary considerably depending on what needs to be done to sell the composite.
I also generally work in floating point and I’m not afraid to stack several effects if it makes the work easier to do, or easier to understand later if I have to revisit it.
I wonder if a lot of your frustration would be solved by going the other way, to a nodal compositor where the flow is more obvious, and the tool arrangement totally user-controlled. Unlike in Ae, the only intrinsic properties of a source node are related to its format (like what you’d find in Interpret Footage), and literally everything else must be applied by the operator.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Jeremy Garchow] “It’s hard for me to grasp what is happening when I make a pre comp a 3D layer because I want to light it or match a camera move, and then collapse the transformation (because I need to for quality purposes or whatever) and things go askew.”
Can we talk about this a little more when you have the time? I’ve been working on a script keen_3dLayerTools [link] which aims to solve some common 3D layer manipulation challenges with a single click.
I think I can help you with your challenges here, but I’d like to understand better how your comps are set up, what it is that you’re doing, what you’re seeing, and what you want to see.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Jeremy Garchow] “[Shawn Miller] “I don’t know if you’re interested, but I would be happy to provide some details on how to go about this… for future reference, of course. :-)”
That sounds fantastic. Thanks so much.
editstation at gmail, if you want to do it that way.”
Yes that works, I will PM you a bit later. 🙂
Shawn
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[Walter Soyka] “But if you have an intrinsic levels property which you ignore and use a levels effect in effect stack, then don’t you have two different places on the same layer where you might look for levels controls? And if you do the work on an adjustment layer instead, now you have four places that the levels work could be done?”
Why not? What if that helped me? I could adjust levels on the layer stack where needed, and then the intrinsic levels filter could add a global adjustment without a precomp, without a separate adjustment layer, and I could have full control without adding much overhead or difficulty, and visits to clickfest.
[Walter Soyka] “I do all my composting in the back yard. (Gotcha again!)”
eh, dammit.
[Walter Soyka] “I’d do this work in the compositor, but the effects/nodes/tools I’d use and the order I’d use them in could vary considerably depending on what needs to be done to sell the composite.”
Sure. Every shot is different. What works for one may not work for another. Are you happy with Ae’s color tools?
[Walter Soyka] “I wonder if a lot of your frustration would be solved by going the other way, to a nodal compositor where the flow is more obvious, and the tool arrangement totally user-controlled. Unlike in Ae, the only intrinsic properties of a source node are related to its format (like what you’d find in Interpret Footage), and literally everything else must be applied by the operator.”
Yeah, I can see the value of a nodal workflow, but I don’t have one. 🙁
maybe i should just stick to composting
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[Walter Soyka] “Can we talk about this a little more when you have the time? I’ve been working on a script keen_3dLayerTools [link] which aims to solve some common 3D layer manipulation challenges with a single click.”
Yes, absolutely.
[Walter Soyka] “I think I can help you with your challenges here, but I’d like to understand better how your comps are set up, what it is that you’re doing, what you’re seeing, and what you want to see.”
The current example was trying to add cast shadows to a “floor” which is a multiplied solid layer that accepts shadows. An easy way to do this is to add a camera to adjust perspective of the floor. But my foreground subject also needed to be 3D because it needed a light, and so then that would get effected by a camera, so I would then try and precomp to make things separate but I’d lose some quality because at this point, everything is really weird. I hit the “collapse transformations” tab, and hit 3D, and things go askew. Turning off the 3D layer does not put things back to where they were, only an undo can put things back to where the were (is that a bug or a feature?). It’s hard to explain, and I ended up ditching most of it and going another way without the shadows, which makes for a crappier compost……. 😀
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Why not? What if that helped me? I could adjust levels on the layer stack where needed, and then the intrinsic levels filter could add a global adjustment without a precomp, without a separate adjustment layer, and I could have full control without adding much overhead or difficulty, and visits to clickfest.”
Maybe I am not understanding what you mean here, then? Seems to me that having a separate, intrinsic levels somewhere would contribute to your (very valid) look-here-no-look-there issue.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Are you happy with Ae’s color tools?”
Not always. The first-party tools are ok, but there is room for improvement.
The new-and-improved Curves effect [link] pales next to third-party Frischluft Fresh Curves [link].
Ae doesn’t have a native first-party three-way color corrector. Adobe has bundled third-party Color Finesse since dinosaurs roamed the earth, but stepping into a separate interface is hard for even for the more click-tolerant among us to accept. Good thing there’s Colorista II [link].
But Ae has nothing quite like NUKE’s MatchGrade node:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfoTuqb3NYsWalter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn]Some contents or functionalities here are not available due to your cookie preferences!This happens because the functionality/content marked as “Google Youtube” uses cookies that you choosed to keep disabled. In order to view this content or use this functionality, please enable cookies: click here to open your cookie preferences.
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[Walter Soyka] “Maybe I am not understanding what you mean here, then? Seems to me that having a separate, intrinsic levels somewhere would contribute to your (very valid) look-here-no-look-there issue.”
This started with an “inspector” type of solution for Ae. If levels were a part of inspector, they could also be a part of the effects window, if that’s what we need. Or, as a user, you wouldn’t have to use it that way.
[Walter Soyka] “Ae doesn’t have a native first-party three-way color corrector. Adobe has bundled third-party Color Finesse since dinosaurs roamed the earth, but stepping into a separate interface is hard for even for the more click-tolerant among us to accept. “
Not only that, when you’re working with transparency, the Color Finesse interface presents a few challenges. The “simple interface” works decently, though, but you do have to do a lot of panel adjusting for that one.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “The current example was trying to add cast shadows to a “floor” which is a multiplied solid layer that accepts shadows. An easy way to do this is to add a camera to adjust perspective of the floor. But my foreground subject also needed to be 3D because it needed a light, and so then that would get effected by a camera, so I would then try and precomp to make things separate but I’d lose some quality because at this point, everything is really weird. I hit the “collapse transformations” tab, and hit 3D, and things go askew. Turning off the 3D layer does not put things back to where they were, only an undo can put things back to where the were (is that a bug or a feature?). “
What camera effect were you trying to negate? (Collapse transformations probably doesn’t do what you want it to in this case, by the way, as it basically pulls the 3D layers from inside the precomp into the main scene.)
If you still have the broken comp lying around somewhere and are able to share, I’d be happy to take a look at the reduced AEP (no footage needed) and see if I can figure out a way for my script to do what you are looking for.
[Jeremy Garchow] “It’s hard to explain, and I ended up ditching most of it and going another way without the shadows, which makes for a crappier compost……. :-D”
Jeremy, the After Effects forum [link] has at least one handsome gentleman who would be happy to help, and in fact, several handsome gentlemen would surely assist. Friends don’t let friends suffer crappy composts.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn]
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