War of the Worlds, Old Fogies vs. Young Idiots

[Gary Alan]

Andy,
You and some others keep talking about yourwself and one or two ther people. We are talking about the big picture with millions of people in all sorts of employment. I speak of facts from years of research, not one job with an old union guy. And, an editor is a far cry from a grunt unloading a truck. Everyone know an editor spent his early years working for free, cheap, cahrity, paying dues. Then they spend many years perfecting their skills that a school will never be able to teach. All those years helping employers make fantastic products and winning awards. You miss the pointv that 50+ people are being “kept out” of any employmnet these days at tremendous numbers. I estinate over 10 million across the country, maybe more. So when you mom and pop become bankrupt and can’t find work and show up at your door for you to keep them alive, maybe you will understand what we are talking about. But I somehow have the feeling you make this conversation just abouy you again and deny that will ever happen. It
s not just about you. Have some reasoning, compassion and forsight for the all the people, the country and the world because eventually anything will come back and have an impact on you. Try to relate to the market crash many years ago. If the economy falls down, you won’t get work anymore and be in the sam soup line.

Your little example could go like this-
Employer ad-Looking for young and hungry recent graduate to do entry level work for low pay. MUST have 5 years pro experience with 3 major credits, MUST know FCP, DVD Studio Pro and all Adobe products. Great opportunity to work with award winning people and be able to build your demo reel.

50+ person gets completely ignored even though they can do all those jobs and he needs the job to pay rent and feed his family. There are many people in their 50’s who can unload a truck just as fast if not faster than some kids. You, Andy, have a very narrow view and opinion.

Gary

[Gary Alan]

I have to disagree with handing out gold stars to people who do not see the whole picture and try to spin everything to make their view just okay for this time. They all add up, Tim. Oner today, 100 tomorrow, millions next month. Get all the facts and make intelligent decisions, unlike all of our politicians in DC.

Gary

[Gary Alan]

Andy,

If you cannot understand unions and their workers who have agreements and contracts, then you should not accept any job that has a union person on the crew. You cannot dictate that the union person should go or break his contract because of the problems you are having. It is up to the employer to deal with any situation that may evolve during the day at work. Are you that boss or employer that is hiring the union people and “paying” them?

If everyone thinks like you, then maybe the next job will make you and the whole crew work for 15 hours straight without having any breaks. Maybe then you will start to feel why humans need certain things in the workplace. What is your answer? Take drugs for extra energy and stamina? Like pro atheletes and the phony wrestlers?

I am not going to discusss whether it is right or wrong what a union guy does. It is not up to us. It is reality and you need to learn and deal with reality.

Gary

[John Davidson]

Aw shucks Tim, thanks. I’ve said (and posted) some pretty thoughtless things at times. We don’t all have fancy pr departments that filter our words for errors, ya know? Foot in mouth disease isn’t just relegated to drunken hollywood stars and politicains!

I really love the cow and think what you guys have done regarding the ‘low pay’ and ‘high pay’ forums is a perfect remedy.

Let the healing begin.

[George Socka]

I am not a young guy saying this but:

1) No one needs to respond to these ads. These producers are as flakey as their requests. Ignore them.

2) There is no more value in a 50 year old guy unloading a truck than a 20 year old. Maybe less because the 20 year old has more stamina. The job is to get the truck unloaded. If the 50 year old is as effective and has the same cost then no one would care. If a power tailgate would do it, even better from an economics and workflow perspective. (remember the Luddites)

3) there is probably not more value in a 30 year experience (regardless of age) camera man than one with 5 years experience. The fact that you know how to balance a tube camera is not that valuable a skill today. If there is no more value, then why would you expect to get paid more? Just because you have a mortgage? How is that an issue for a production?

4) Look at the auto industry for the future of unionized work environments. Cars are coming from China as we speak. $70/hr to drive a car off the end of the line is way too much, and the customer wont pay it. TV and video work is moving off shore in a big hurry. Remember Cold Mountain?

5) Don’t get me started on union job divisions. What makes a person operating a camera incapable of plugging in the power cord?

[Gary Alan]

George,

I think you need a new thread. This thread is not about whether unions are good or bad. We are talking about the law and age discrimination. FTR, I have seen some 50 years olds with more stamina than some 20 years olds. The original ad was for an editor, not a person to unload trucks or hang lights. If a movie needs a young female to play a part, then place an ad for a young female. If a movie needs an editor, then place an ad for an editor (any age) and how much pay is offered. Then people can decide on whether to apply. If you or anyone does not like discrimination laws, then make an effort to change the laws instead of braking them willy nilly. If someones thinks they can go about breaking laws, then they should not be surprised when they get spotted, tagged and have to pay the penalty.

Gary

[Nick Griffin]

Age discrimination… work ethics… 50 year olds unloading trucks with power lift gates… girls in short skirts hanging lights… global, big view versus micro-economics… anti-union… pro-union… WHAT A THREAD! (Or a Billy Joel song for those of you who can get an obscure reference to “We didn’t start the fire…”)

Seems to me like you guys have covered a lot of ground. And just when everything seems to be going in a few dozen directions at once something happens which adds a strange focus to at least some of it. I could NOT make this up, especially with the timing of happening just this morning, moments after reading through this thread.

My house needs some exterior painting done so for the past few days I’ve had a few painters and painting contractors stopping by to give quotes. The guy who was coming this morning from one of the national franchised painting companies had a name that seemed familiar, but I couldn’t seem to place it. He shows up at 8:00, as scheduled and the first thing out of his mouth was, “You may not remember me but I did some work for you several years ago in a past life.”

“Oh, yea,” I say, “NOW I know why I remember your name. You did some 3D and AfterEffects work as bumpers for a video for (blah, blah, blah) in the late nineties.”

“Well that work was pretty un-even,” he stated, “What with every kid in the world now able to do it on their home computer, so my wife and I started this other business.” Interesting since the reason we didn’t use him again was getting our own copy of AfterEffects and suite of plug-ins.

So here we are, eight or nine years later and the animator turned painting contractor is reviewing his estimate with me and giving me examples like, “We can do X kind of prep or Y kind of prep for this surface. Kind of like the choice between Premiere and Final Cut Pro, there’s no right or wrong way to get the same thing done.”

I think I need to go back inside, have another cup of coffee and clear my head. Would my life be simpler and more profitable if I was managing painters instead of corporate communications projects? Well, at least at age 56 I don’t have to unload any grip trucks — even ones with a power lift gate.

[Andy Richards]

I’m not going to take the bait on this one. Some people work on big productions and some on smaller ones. I have nothing against unions, just lazy people and especially lazy people using their union as their excuse for being lazy. And no I don’t want to work for 20 hours in a row for a sweatshop producer. ‘Nuf said?

[David Roth weiss]

[Nick Griffin] “Problem with oogling girls is when they look straight at you and go, “Eewwww! What are YOU looking at? You’re my Dad’s age!””

Nick,

Sorry to drag the thread down farther, but I simply have to relay a real life experience.

I was once sitting next to a very, very pretty young lady while at the vets office. She was wearing one of the world’s great strapless halter tops. We started chatting about our doggies and at some point she leaned over to within a few inches of my face and stared directly into my eyes, and she asked, “are you by any chance single?” My heart soared… I told her I was indeed single… She smiled and let out a huge sigh of relief… Then, she asked if I’d like to go out with her mother.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY

[Mark Nancetor]

Why is it that whenever anyone speaks out against the insanity of what some do in the name of their union, then immediately “20 hour days” and “sweatshops” is chanted?

I have personally been threatened, beat up and driven off the road by union activists who didn’t like the fact that I liked my job just the way it was, thank you.

But if I say union “thugs,” then up goes the defense that it’s only a small percentage. The truth is, it’s only a small percentage of companies that are sweatshops. Most people I have met over the years are fairly balanced.

In either case, it’s the exceptions that get the news.

I am NOT anti-union. Like Andy, I am anti-lazy bastards hiding behind them.

The joke is, what is bright orange and sleeps six? A union road crew truck, working on a highway project. But anyone that has seen the one guy standing on a road project holding a sign, while six people strand off to the side watching, as one guy drives a tractor, the joke isn’t all that funny when its taxpayers paying the bill.

You only have to look at the effect that unions have had on the US film industry to see that they have pushed prices to where it just became cheaper to send those jobs to Vancouver and Toronto.

Union workers are today the highest paid guys on the unemployment line or in job retraining programs. After all, they killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Mark Nance