Varicam vs. HDX900 – Business Perspective

[John Sharaf]

Bill,

Yes, the X900 has thrown a real monkey wrench in the mix. When the requirement is DVCPRO100 there’s only one reason why a Varicam would be required, and that is compatibility in a multicam shoot. EWven though the two cameras can be made to look similar, the engineering requirement is more complicated and time consuming and there is not always that time available. In addition the X900 does not have the Dynamic Range controls that the Varican has. As an owner of four Varicams, I would not consider replacing them with four X900’s, but if I was starting out now, I’d buy a 900 in a minute, especially because of the lower price (even though it garners an almost equal rental in many uses). Of course, now that Sony is delivering the PDW700, one must seriously consider that camera, because it also offers 720 and 1080 but with a native 2.2 million pixel 1920×1080 imager.

JS

[Chris Bell]

Bill,

I have a Varicam for sale. If you are interested, please contact me off-list.

chris at spotshooter dot com

[Erich Roland]

From a small rental house perspective the HDX’s have been very busy the last year mostly because the hub on the street suggest it looks like a Varicam but costs less. (now that you can buy a used Vari for so cheap, that’s the great buy!)

The Varicam has been the gold standard for a pretty good run now (in this fast changing digital world) for 6-7 years now, in the doc market anyway that we (Dc-camera) mostly provide to. The Varicam is not dead yet and I believe needs to be considered going forward for a few good reasons.

The HDX’s have a up-rez’d SD sensor, and as John mentioned doesn’t have the dynamic range, or “pleasant filmic look” the varicam has. The HDX is very hard edged looking for my taste. One can convert the varicam’s 720p image to 1080 if needed and you will basicly be in the same place that the HDX will get you to (lines wise) but with a better looking image.

what about the new P2 Varicams? (and P2 in general)

We’ve had 2 full size P2 cameras for a year now and they are not working much (HPX-3000, and 500). The hvx’s go still go out a lot but slowing. This “favored” position the HVX’s have enjoyed for about a year is now being taken over by the new small Sony products like the EX-1, and EX-3. They look much sharper, bigger sensors, On Board monitor that look great, lower light sensitive, cleaner image, cheaper cards, cards that fit into the mac-books…. HVX’s in hind sight are not very good at all next to these new Sony’s (sorry Pany).

For “long form” 2/3″ inch cameras, our clients are not going for the solid state yet its not mature enough. Nobody wants to deal with all that file transfering in the field when your shooting hours of materiel day after day. When its time to archive I know people who transfer back to tape… and that’s just crazy. Until features show up for flash recording that cannot work with tape which will force the move to flash, tape still works great, and your not going to accidently delete the footage. Right now the time lapse and over/undercrank is all that works better on solid state. The perfect solution is a tape based camera, with a card slot that you could switch to record to CF card when needed for those time manipulating shots. (Pany, anybody listening?) Panasonic needs to bite the bullet and go to CF cards, turns out P2 was a bad move, which is going to begin to hurt them soon. They have all the egg’s in the P2 basket, as no new tape cameras have come out. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for that decision, yikes!

Don’t get me started…(OK, I will) Panasonic who have done so well with the Varicam, and Sdx-900, and Dvx-100, (all fantastic) ever since have messed up big. HVX is a dog. HDX is a cheat. and now…. why on earth in 2009 do we have to choose between a bigger sensor (3700), or smaller sensor but higher frame rate (2700)? How does red achieve a huge sensor, and higher frame rates… and all this can record to a compact flash card! But Panasonic wants us to buy 2 different cameras to equal (sort of, not really) what red has done with one, and at a cheaper price! (hello Panasonic…whats up over there?)

I think Panasonic has blown it myself. They had a very good market position going into the this last wave of what should have been raising the bar, but they have not. I think P2 is going to go down in flames if they don’t start dropping the price of the media fast and come out with better, cheaper, faster, easier support including an archive system for flash media shooting. (by-by Panasonic! you came up fast and from no-where with the Varicam, but may also disapear again if you can not keep up)

ok, that’s enough for me today. Going to look at Sony’s new 700 cause I’m too disgusted with Panasonic right now.

Oh, and Canon’s Mk2 (shot across the bow) might be putting them all out of business soon if Canon or Nikon are smart enough to play this new concept for all its worth. Interesting times for sure!

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[Erich Roland] “The HDX’s have a up-rez’d SD sensor, and as John mentioned doesn’t have the dynamic range, or “pleasant filmic look” the varicam has. The HDX is very hard edged looking for my taste. One can convert the varicam’s 720p image to 1080 if needed and you will basicly be in the same place that the HDX will get you to (lines wise) but with a better looking image.”

Hi Erich, The HDX900 has the exact same Chip set as the Varicam, the firmware around it is different. The new 2700 and the 2000 also have the same CCD set as the Varicam and again it is the firmware/software around it that is different. The control handles are not as sophisticated on the HPX2000 and the HDX900, but you can get the HDX900 to come very close to looking like the Varicam, but as you say it is not the smae, the Varicam and the new P2 Varicam have the Varicam mojo.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Chris Bell]

Excellent analysis.

Welcome to the great race to the bottom. I feel Panasonic sold-out Varicam owners with the HDX-900. It has all but killed off the resale value of the Varicam. Producers don’t understand that ANY Panasonic HD deck can convert 720p to 1080i (how HDX-900 works) and as a result won’t rent the Varicam. The Varicam still makes a great image, and i’ll get a few more years of life out of mine. P2 has its place, but Panasonic has put too much emphasis on it in their product line. I have no interest in a P2 Varicam… my RED ONE is miles ahead in functionality/quality. I’d buy an updated 1080p tape based Varicam, but I don’t see that ever happening.

I will say that Panasonic’s service has been very good, and their sales/support staff are top notch.

[Erich Roland]

hey Jan, thanks for (quickly indeed) straightening out my misunderstanding on the HDX sensor. I heard early on the HDX’s CCD chip had funny business going on behind the scenes but that must have been about the 720 lines issue. But This is true for the HVX and HPX-500 uprez’d SD sensor, no?

Chris, your right the HDX has killed the resale value of our Varicams, but for those who have an eye for a good picture the HDX has boosted the true value of the Varicam because its a better image, and now you can buy them so cheaply in the used market, great value!

I hear you on the “race to the bottom”. Whoever was cleaver enough to design the Varicam must be gone from Panasonic because they are missing the boat these days, or the marketers have taken the helm. I’ve been Panasonic’s biggest cheerleader the last 5 years or so, but I’m pissed about the new products. Oh well, other companies will be happy to step in as (I believe) Pany will loose market to those a bit hungrier to steal the position they have enjoyed with better innovation and most (if not all) contemporary features in ONE camera.

I took a hard look at the 2 new Varicam’s and could not decide on which one would best suit our needs, so I would need both. Well which do you bring on a shoot…. same tough decision, bring 2 camera’s everywhere? Guessing I’m not alone in this quandary. Sorry Pany, but this is a ridicules choice to have to make in this day and age!

best, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[Erich Roland]

I’ve been thinking about this post and wanted to extend one more this morning.

The logical conclusion to my problem of which P2 Varicam to possibly purchase (for rentals) is to buy neither because our customers will have the same problem making that choice, and because weve seen almost zero demand for 2/3″ P2 products.

The more logical camera for our customers will soon be the Sony PDW-700. Unfortunately the 24p function is still coming (spring 09 they say). The optical disc also solves the flash memory problem of having to transfer footage in the field, and they are cheap enough to keep your footage on these same disc’s as the archive copy (just like tape!). And the disc’s still have the same ability to transfer as data and random access ability to erase clips, time lapse, etc as flash recording. The one big downer is a motor, and power consumption, etc. But maybe its a better system when you weigh all pluses and minuses. Id guess they will soon offer the same camera with all SxS cards to record, or who knows, maybe they will jump to the next flash record product we don’t know about yet. Maybe there is a reason Sony is not jumping all over the SxS in 2/3″ cameras like Panasonic has?

Hate to say it, because Ive been po-poo’ing Sony’s products for 5 years now (except the F900), but now with the EX mini cameras (that are quite good), and what on paper looks to be a good system coming with the PDW-700, I think Sony may now take back what they lost when the varicam show’d up years ago.

I’ll repeat what I said earlier, look to Red for whats possible. I for one don’t want to buy a RED product (yet) because its still too buggy and not ready for prime time (I had ordered one a year ago but canceled when my number came up). By the time the new Scarlet’s hit the street it might all be working better, and priced for the mass market. But these guys are paving the way for whats possible, and our Japanese camera makers can look to where the bar is raised to (by Red) and just follow behind. Its a great position to be, because they can see what people are wanting, talking about, and buying then swing in with Asian mass production, innovation, sales and service facilities all over the world, etc…. should be an easy steal of Reds product ideas. But…. then Panasonic comes out with (2) different P2 Varicams that together would still come up short of what Red has achieved… WTF… ???

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[John Sharaf]

Erich,

I totally agree with you regarding the ill-advised decision from Panasonic to replace the Varicam with two cameras (2700 & 3700). It’s not so much the P2 but the fact that one is 720 and the other 1080 (and only goes to 30 fps frame rate – no slow motion). I made these complaints immediately to the powers that be at last years NAB and was told that they could not come up with a 1920×1080 imager that would do 60fps without overheating. I shouldn’t think the transcode to 720 would be that much of a problem as apparently Sony has accomplished this in their 1080 native PDW-700.

Of course it’s no bed of roses at Sony either; I’ve been waiting for more than two months for a promised “imminent” delivery of two 700’s and HD XDCAM deck, and several of my associates who have received cameras had lit pixels and faulty on-board decks on first use. There is no doubt that Sony is in over their heads in the design, manufacture and delivery of this camera system, even though as you say on paper it looks ideal. Despite these initial hiccups, I believe that the PDW700 camera, both because of it’s “swiss army knife” array of features and formats and the viability of the XDCAM discs as both file media and inexpensive archive, will emerge as the new betacam, especially for news production.

I also believe the future will be defined by parallel infrastructure divided by 8 bit and 10 bit, with television news and doc production being 8 bit and higher end doc, commercial and digital cinema being 10 bit. The higher end folks will use P2, CF, SxS or whatever media it takes to write the least compressed, highest color depth master as possible and will suffer the additional cost and inconvenience which accompanies that decision, in workflow and archiving. I do disagree with you as regards P2, which I think is definately coming into it’s own by virtue of the increased size/capacity and lowered price as well as the availability of cameras like the 3700, which cannot be faulted too much because of the 10bit, AVC-I codec and 4:4:4 capabilities, only because it does not do 720 as well, and maybe Panasonic will get the message. Granted 720 is an inferior format, but there are networks that still (and will) require it.

There are rumors of a HDCAM-SR camcorder, in a F900R type package, being announced at the upcoming NAB which will rival the features of the 3700 (10 bit recording, no horizontal down-rez and 4:4:4 as an optional output) that will both challenge Panasonic and kick-start even more digital cinema style production, so be ready to spend more money (if you have any!).

JS

[Jeff Regan]

In the San Francisco market, XDCAM HD is a non-starter. XDCAM EX is making some headway, but while the resolution is stellar, the CMOS artifacts and Long GOP, 4:2:0 colorspace is a compromise.

The HDX900 is ubiquitous at this point(as was the SDX900), with over 30 HDX900’s in the market with rental houses and owner/ops. There are just a few F900R’s and a handful of F900’s.

We should not underestimate the effect that HVX200’s have had on driving the switch to HD at all levels.

The PDW700 is years late and functionally crippled without 24p. The $4500 firmware upgrade, available in June, is laughable when an EX1 costs $6000.

The greatest feature of the HDX900 is not 14 Bit processing vs. 12 bit for the Varicam, or DRS circuit or smaller size/lower weight–it’s the FireWire output. Most of my clients use an FS-100 for primary record with tape as a backup/archival media.

The new on-board HD SDI MPEG2 solid state recorders could yet give Varicam more life expectancy.

Regarding P2, I agree that bigger capacity and AVC Intra will keep it viable, but I was disappointed that the 64Gb pricing wasn’t lower.
I also feel that the two P2 Varicams are over priced vs. the HPX2000 and 3000. A $14K premium is hard to justify, although the 4:4:4 output on the 3700 could be a good thing, but it is frame rate handicapped compared to the original Varicam or 2700 as mentioned.

RED is exciting, as is Scarlett’s potential, but for my corporate clients, I think they are not the right cameras.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com

[James Mulryan]

Here are my two cents:

Just as the DVX 100 brought high quality SD imaging to the masses, the HVX200 brought a high quality HD format, DVCProHD to the masses. Having shot with the HVX for close to three years now, I consider it a revolutionary product– as long as you have a bullet proof backup system. I would go for DVCPRO HD over HDV or any of its successors because of motion and color space problems. This knocks all Sony products out of the running except for the HDCAM or it’s higher end siblings. I don’t see the 700 becoming the next Betacam because of green screen and motion issues.

Unfortunately, most of my of my clients will not use P2– insisting instead on HDCAM or the Varicam.
So the HVX is great for my own documentary projects, any of the higher end models will not, at this point, make enough rental income from clients to justify investing in. Which is a shame, because I imagine that the 3000 and the Varicam 3700 make stunning images. Panasonic needs to come up with a self contained bulletproof backup system that can be used in a hotel room after a day’s shoot. I don’t know what the media would be, but the ease of shooting and the robust nature of P2 blows tape out of the water. If you have 4 64 G cards, you have a ton of storage and you also have a big download headache 240 G of storage using the Dual Adaptor takes two hours to transfer.

Yes I guess Panasonic should have come out with a tape based AVC-Intra 100 full raster 60 fps Varicam, Wonder if this format would have worked with existing tape heads and tapes? Goes totally against the tapeless push.

I wouldn’t bash Panasonic too hard. They have come out with some really high quality reliable gear.

James Mulryan
Sunset Park Media, LLC
Santa Monica, CA
info@jamesmulryan.com