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Varicam 27H vs 27F issues
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[Leo Ticheli] “The “F” model of the VariCam has enjoyed a very long run, has offered very low cost, if not free, software upgrades, and is not at all eclipsed by the new “H” model. You should be able to enjoy more profitable years with your “F” model VariCam.”
LEO
WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE THAT BOUGHT THEIR CAMERAS WITHIN THE PAST SIX MONTHS. SHOULD THEY NOT BE PROTECTED BY OFFEERING SOME SORT OF UPGRADE PATH? -
I’m sure you’re aware of the historic lifespan of video cameras, if you bought within the last six months, you bought fairly late in the product cycle.
Perhaps Panasonic will be willing to do something for you, perhaps not, but you still have the most versatile HD camcorder that exists. It’s the only HD camcorder that is a direct replacement for a film camera with variable frame-rates. Period.
You should be able to make beautiful pictures, virtually indistinguishable from the “H” model, and make money with your camera for a few more years. I can’t imagine a client demanding the “H” model.
While it’s not easy to predict the future, I’m betting that I won’t be switching to another HD camera until an affordable camcorder with a 35 MM sized imager comes along. Going out on a limb, I’m guessing two to three more years; perhaps longer. Since I bought one of the very first VariCams, that’s a long run by any measure.
The next VariCam will probably offer some kind of direct to disc or chip recording providing a higher quality image; we’ll evaluate when that happens. I would think that such a system would have to provide for affordable, permanently reliable storage; we’re not there yet. What’s the point of switching recording systems if you still have to go to tape, especially if you need expensive D5 machines?
I don’t feel Panasonic owes you anything, but it can’t hurt to talk to them.
Enjoy your VariCam; you’ll make money with it.
Good shooting!
Leo
Director/Cinematographer
Southeast USA -
[Atl Cine] “WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE THAT BOUGHT THEIR CAMERAS WITHIN THE PAST SIX MONTHS. SHOULD THEY NOT BE PROTECTED BY OFFEERING SOME SORT OF UPGRADE PATH?”
Why?
I do not get hardware upgrade paths for Avid or Quantel
Nor odes GM give upgrade paths, why is this different?
Is the H model so superior that the F model is immediately obsolete?And while Panny does not offer an upgrade path, I do know that many people took advantage of the 9″ display discount offer that ended about 2 months ago.
Does that not count?Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA -
[gary adcock] “I do not get hardware upgrade paths for Avid or Quantel
Nor odes GM give upgrade paths, why is this different? “GARY
EXACTLY WHY I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AN IKEGAMI CAMERA OWNER, THEY WOULD NEVER INTRO A NEW CAM WITHOUT PROTECTING CLIENTS THAT RECENTLY PURCHASED OLDER MODELS. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS NEW MODEL VARICAM WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED AT VARICAMP IN JUNE. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE PEOPLE AT PANASONIC THAT ARE CLOSEST TO THE VARICAM WERE NOT AWARE OF A NEW CAMERA TO BE ANNOUNCED THIS QUICKLY? ANSWER: NO WAY. MAYBE IT IS TIME FOR ALL CONCERNED TO MAKE A STATEMENT TO PANASONIC. ALL I ASK IS FOR HONESTY.
AS FOR AVID,OUANTEL OR GM…I DON’T OWN THEM ANYMORE! -
Please stop screaming. The use of all caps in a forum such as this is considered to be rude.
Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA -
Leo Ticheli wrote;
>>> You’ve had the VariCam for two years; have you not made a ton of money on it?
With the relatively low purchase price and very respectable rental day rates, you should have. If not, either your business did not justify the purchase in the first place or your market conditions are very wrong.>>>Yes, in my market, Hollywood, CA, the F900 and 1080P rules the roost. My purchase of the Varicam was too early and hasn’t really served me for my client base, the major motion picture studios. John Sharaf has had success with his Varicams here in LA, catering to network clients. Since I have purchased the F900, it has worked consistently. I offer the Varicam as a lower cost alternative to the 1080 world, but it hasn’t really caught on in my market niche except with New Line Cinema. So, yes my market conditions were wrong, and I made a correction. Whether I keep the Varicam will be decided by the end of the year. My gut feeling is no. However, this does not prevent me from saying again that Panasonic unlike Sony is not acting straightforward with us owners by not at least giving us an option to upgrade to 12 bit H models. I would like to know from someone at Panasonic just how much this equipment upgrade would cost so I can decide whether to do it or not. Sony did this and everyone spent the $3000 to upgrade without thinking twice.
Leo, I have read many of your posts and I think you are very lucky to have gotten your Varicam when you did, and made it successful in your market. You seem to be able to shoot much of your material at 500% dynamic range with some black stretch. Since you seem to also be able to correct the gamma discrepancies this causes in post, you are in a nice closed loop. Those of us who shoot primarily for broadcast though have no such abilities. We have zero room for error on our exposure and dynamic range choices – usually forcing us to shoot at 200% and -1 black stretch at the most. Color correction is not something broadcast clients even want to discuss, let alone perform. What I am getting at is this – you can manipulate the gamma curve by orders of magnitude more control and precision with 12 bit signal processing vs 10 bit. I have seen this myself firsthand by just comparing the Varicam to the F900 which does use 12 bit processing. The difference is startling and clear. By increasing the bit depth from 1024 colors to 4096 colors – therefore increasing the ability to fine tune gamma correction, one can easily see that the processing quantization alone in the 27F has been obsolesced by the wider range of the new 27H. Now we all know that in the end it gets crunched down to 256/8bits on the tape, but that isn’t the issue here at all. The issue is whether the Varicam 27F can stay competitive with the Sony F900 in my market. I fear, in the end, it cannot.
Oh, and as far as Avid is concerned – I can’t count the number of clients who have switched from Avid to other systems of late BECAUSE of their lack of upgrade paths – something I am warning Panasonic to disregard at their own peril.
Bruce Schultz
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Hi Bruce,
I’m sorry you haven’t been able to make the VariCam work for you in your market, but your situation is certainly not Panasonic’s fault.
A couple of technical points: I rarely, I mean very rarely, use Black Stretch. Yes, I regularly shoot at Dynamic Level set to 500%, but I don’t encounter the problems you seem to have with it. In point of fact, we do some post color correction simply because we like to tweak a bit, not because the camera original “needs” it. Perhaps your settings don’t look right at 500%; mine do. I hate the look of 200%; it’s far too much like “video” to me; of course opinions vary. If you develop some different settings; you might find much more than you are now getting.
I certainly don’t want to start or continue a CineAlta vs. VariCam debate, but many do not share your opinion that the 900 makes better pictures. My experience is the opposite of yours. Can we please just agree that properly used, both are quite capable?
I had the first Avid sold in the Southeast US and was an “avid” fan for many years; like you, I grew very disappointed with them as their policies seemed to drift away from customer concern and service. That’s why we converted to FCP and have never looked back. I must say, however, that the experience with Panasonic has been totally unlike that with Avid. Panasonic customer support and dialog has been outstanding.
I’m told by a few major equipment houses that throughout the country the VariCam is outselling the CineAlta by a very large margin; a ton of us are doing quite well with it and I can assure you that we will continue to do so. If you are primarily in rental, I can see how not having the latest model could be a liability, so you have to amortize accordingly. Owner-operators, on the other hand, don’t need the latest model because they are hired for the end result not the equipment model number.
It’s my opinion that Panasonic does not owe current users anything towards the purchase of an “H” model. I’m told a hardware upgrade is not possible because of totally new cards. Unfortunately, you can’t get rid of lead solder with software! Furthermore, if you’re not making a good return on your current VariCam, I would be amazed if you could do better with the “H” model.
While I’m grateful for all the VariCam has helped me accomplish, I can understand that it may not work for everyone. I wish I could help you and am available to help off-list if you like; however I can’t agree that you have a valid complaint in reference to the model “H.” I do wish you could find a way to turn things around and stick with the VariCam community.
Best regards,
Leo
Director/Cinematographer
Southeast USA -
Bruce & Leo,
I have to correct Bruce in his statement that I have had success with the Varicam with “network” clients; although I expect that to be the case soon with the conversion of Good Morning America and then other ABC News programs to HD. Since I have had my Varicams, I’ve used them on commercials, industrials, standard def and HD cable programs, long form feature documentaries, a low budget feature film and on a series of pilots for cable. Many of these assignments could just have easily been done with the F900 except for the fact that the clients specified Varicam!
This was usually the case because they preferred the lower rental price, the less expensive tape stock and the firewire work flow that enabled them to edit in native HD codec on FCP. Another reason of course is the ability to shoot at variable frame rates, both over and under cranked.
Personally, I prefer the flicker-free viewfinder and monitoring vs. the F900, and the slightly smaller and less power intensive Varicam compared to the F900 which requires an on-board analog to HD-SDI converter for convenient monitoring and systems integration.
This is not to say that when compared in progressive (Varicam) vs. PsF (Sony) modes the F900 is slightly sharper when viewed on my 23″ eCinema monitor (Varicam scaled to fill the 1920×1080 raster).
As regards the Dynamic Range setting; I think Leo is very lucky that he works in a closed-loop environment and is able to color correct each shoot. This allows him to use a 500% setting even though he is not finishing to film and therefore take advantage of the maximum highlight compression the best mimics motion picture film. Bruce is correct in his understanding that such a setting is not always appropriate when delivering a WYSIWUG master tape for broadcast or finishing in an environment that does not include extensive color correction, or at the very least a Gamma Correction Box in the post production work flow; in these cases the 200 or 300% settings, and some slight black press (-1) create a very nice compromise setting that does offer many of the advantages of the “film look” or “film gamma settings” vs. what would otherwise be a “video look”. This is especially the case when combined with the 24p speed and 180 degree shutter.
None of this however obfiscates the 27F vs. 27H issues; especially for owners who have just recently purchased their camera, and as regards interoperability in a multicamera environment. I believe that Panasonic should at least offer recent purchasers a trade-in program, although I don’t think there would be many takers and I think they should have included a “dumbed down” matching mode in the new camera so it (and the old memory cards) could be used with existing 27F’s seamlessly. JMHO!
F900 owners will be facing this same issue soon enough as Sony discontinues the current model and replaces it with one which will have improvements along the line of those in the 27H; and ironicly for the very same environmental issues. Perhaps they’ll include SR recording and 1080 60p features but we’ll have to wait and see. I for one (as a F900 owner too) hope that the old camera and the new camera can continue to work together, and I would be greatly suprised if Sony offers any kind of trade-in program considering the length of time the f900 model has been in the marketplace.
It is true that the economics of both these cameras defy the conventional formulas, especially those of the Beta camcorders, because they were consideably less expensive and seem to have lasted much longer. Perhaps we were all spoiled by this calculation! Especially as competition and lower rental rates for the F900 and the Varicam become the norm, it will be harder and harder to justify their purchase at current prices.
The real problem is when the necessary lenses, monitors, decks and other infrastructure is added in. The networks and other clients/producers who are accustomed to Betacam prices will be reluctant to pay more than the current prices, so owner/operators will be squeezed. This part creates the great unknown. Furthermore current Betacam owners will be lumbered with their current cameras which they might have to keep for some lingering SD clients and could not sell for any significant coin even if they could.
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[john sharaf] “As regards the Dynamic Range setting; I think Leo is very lucky that he works in a closed-loop environment and is able to color correct each shoot. This allows him to use a 500% setting even though he is not finishing to film and therefore take advantage of the maximum highlight compression the best mimics motion picture film. Bruce is correct in his understanding that such a setting is not always appropriate when delivering a WYSIWUG master tape for broadcast or finishing in an environment that does not include extensive color correction, or at the very least a Gamma Correction Box in the post production work flow; in these cases the 200 or 300% settings, and some slight black press (-1) create a very nice compromise setting that does offer many of the advantages of the “film look” or “film gamma settings” vs. what would otherwise be a “video look”. This is especially the case when combined with the 24p speed and 180 degree shutter.”
John
Would you be willing to discuss your detail settings for this look? Are they turned off, if not what are you starting numbers?
Thanks for any input. -
I’m trying to convert my 27f files to the 27h.
Anyone know where the software download is?
thanks
David
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